Ticket? really??
Thread started by
cyclepaths at 08.22.10 - 3:37 am
Last night i went to my local 24hr donut shop with my little cousins and sister which is two blocks away in our bikes. We were in the sidewalk going like ZERO miles per hour enjoying the night breeze, and a lady cop stops in the middle of the road, turns her damn lights for everyone to see, screams at us to get our bike like were criminals, and mkaes stand in a line against the wall. She told us we were all getting a tickets for no lights because in the "crowded sidewalk" at 11 in the night we can hit a pedastrain. She was being a B***H about it and wrote everyone up. She gave us all this BS about helmets and curfew, but thanks to her partner (which was cool BTW) she let it go. Now we all have to take our bikes to court with lights and pay fee. FFFF UUUU COPS! (not all). In all my years of riding ive never been given a ticket for riding a bike in the sidewalk w/ no lights.
Mayor V, get your LAP department straightened out please. Thank you
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Go out and get some lights then take your bikes down to the closet CHP station and show them the lights and the ticket. They should just sign off on it. I don't think you have to go to court.
Also, if you do ride your bike at night, it is the law to use lights. It is for your safety.
I understand the cop was a b!tch about it, take her name and badge number and send in a complaint about her behavior. Cops enforce the law, but they should be courteous and professional when doing it. It's not like you guys had just robbed a bank. You were just riding your bikes.
328rides4ever08.22.10 - 8:00 am
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Hello Cyclepaths,
As 328rides4ever indicated...you do have to have a light on your bike for safety reasons. The officer's citation, while an inconveniance, is appropriate. The behavior is another story. If you feel that her language, attitude, or tone rise to the level of unprofessionalism and discourtesy than you can make a complaint at the local station or you can call it into the complaint hotline at 1-800-339-6868.
Take care.
Sgt. David Krumer08.22.10 - 10:47 am
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With all due respect,
fuck you and your cop friends.
July responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
08.23.10 - 5:17 am
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Bwuahahahaha! I'm pretty sure you took the words right out of the many cyclists who were just thinking that.
^olsko*jr7 responding to a
comment by July
08.23.10 - 9:23 am
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And by this juvenile (albeit brief) rant you hope to accomplish what? Your comment shows nothing but cowardice. If you feel that you and/or others have been mistreated, then do something about it--call, make a complaint, get involved, call Sgt. Krumer and tell him how you feel, ask to get involved with those cyclists regularly interfacing with LAPD who are trying to make things better, call Bikeside, call the LA County Bike Coalition . . .
But to sit at a keyboard and type expletives under cover of a pseudonym without taking any further action is asinine.
dudeonabike responding to a
comment by July
08.23.10 - 9:36 am
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exactly. sgt. krumer, chief beck, the mayor and half the city council have all gone out of their way to say "we want to support cyclists." so make some calls and demand their support!
also, don't forget that sgt. krumer is on here to officially represent the LAPD. he can only give information. he gave you all the information that you need to file a complaint with the department.
and you should. that cop sounds like a real bully. there's no excuse for unequal treatment of cyclists involved in minor traffic stops.
tortuga_veloce responding to a
comment by dudeonabike
08.23.10 - 10:07 am
reply
remember we had a convo about changing the landscape in LA? this doesn't help...
it's going to be a long process but the end goal is that the police will finally come around and support the people.... we aren't there yet, but it CAN happen and it IS happening in some areas of our lives. IMAGINE it. work for it. be it.
The Mayor, Chief Beck, and sooner or later the rank and file will come around. just have to absorb the negatives.... lets give it a try. I truly believe that the cops will see the light...
we ride bicycles. what could they possibly have against that.... we will win this.
Roadblock responding to a
comment by July
08.23.10 - 11:02 am
reply
are bike riders req'd to have lights when they are on the sidewalk or dismounted?
Roadblock responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
08.23.10 - 11:03 am
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There is "unequal" treatment happening.
But I don't think its based on the fact that the people that were singled out were on bikes.
It probably has more to do with their neighborhood, their looks, their clothes, etc.
There is a long history of profiling and bad policing in LAPD and many other law agencies.
Chief Beck has been on the Job for less than a year. And while I am admittedly a fatal optimist, i do recognize that Chief Beck is making efforts to improve the quality of policing on his force.
But there is culture, there his history, there is the natural tendencies of flawed human beings dealing with power that all must be dealt with. Its impossible to change all those things over night and even harder amid budget cutbacks.
Lately I've been really dismayed at how many stories like this have have been hearing.
But hopefully, if we do our part in helping to keep asshole cops in check and the LAPD brass does there part to hold cops like this accountable, we can see a tangible improvement in police community relations in the coming years.
------
When cops are rude, threaten to break the law, or violate our rights, it is toxic to our city and our culture. Hold them accountable: document it, report it, demand that there is a record.
trickmilla responding to a
comment by tortuga_veloce
08.23.10 - 11:04 am
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I've gotten so many bullshit tickets from these guys and have spent countless hours, and needless to say, thousands on dollars, just to fight tickets that were unjust and wrong. I have spent a week in jail because an officer decided to push me and when I asked him to stop and touched him... he put me down for battery. All for swimming in a pool, albeit probably shouldn't have been doing that, but I would have manned up and taken my trespassing ticket and moved on. I'm tired of hearing these stories from friends. Every week it's a new one.
But you're right. It was a dick move on my behalf, and I'll go ahead and apologize because it's not how I roll. The whiskey got the best of me last night.
July responding to a
comment by dudeonabike
08.23.10 - 11:53 am
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I'm sorry. You're right.
July responding to a
comment by Roadblock
08.23.10 - 11:53 am
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Get the ticket signed off, you may get away with a $10 fine and you could even ask the judge to dismiss the fines all together if you have your day in court.
I've gotten the same ticket in Palos Verdes. At least they didn't make you walk home.
dannyzuko08.23.10 - 12:20 pm
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it is really really hard to comprehend why cops would even bother picking on cyclists... but they do.... so when a police officer starts with you, the EASIEST way out is to simply apologize for whatever you "did wrong", speak in the most respectful manner possible and really, try to understand what you were doing that got the cop's attention and how you can quickly diffuse the situation when they turn their attention to you. Of course this is coming from a white adult male argue-ably a racial profile that doesnt get harassed nearly as much as other races... it's going to be a difficult battle but the people will win. the cops need to be loved into this party... it's the only way we are going to fight the bigger battle of Los Angeles.
Roadblock08.23.10 - 12:39 pm
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Why is a citation "appropriate"?
I think it's nice that Krumer is trying to help and ease the tension between those who are at odds with the police and to clarify the LAPD's stance on some issues. It just seems like we're running into the very problems that are plaguing our day to day lives with the police force.
Lets ask some simple questions about this incident:
1) Does a small group of people riding to a donut shop need to be policed?
2) Do you want your day-today life scrutinized to THAT degree?
3) Even is riding without lights is dangerous:
a. how does a citation help?
b. Why not just explain about the dangers? help educate?
c. What other options could an officer do in this scenario?
4) How many people believe citations are more than an inconvenience?
I'm all for the LAPD supporting cyclists rights (and human rights in general), and I'm supportive of their attempts to understand the cycling community, given it is for good reasons. I dont want to be at odds with the LAPD
just because Im on a bike.
But it's frustrating reading the replies from an officer because we don't want to be told what we already know -- that just because some laws exist, and officer can enforce them, thus the enforcement is appropriate.
We're tired of our lives being managed to THAT degree and having to worry when we see an officer because they are ABLE to nit-pick our lives.
Can we reach a more workable society without cussing each other out, and without treating citizens like they need to be punished, more than served? I thought it was about serving... im so damn confused?
md2 responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
08.23.10 - 12:42 pm
reply
Hi Roadblock,
With regards to having a light if you are riding on the sidewalk...there is case law where a kid was riding his bike on the sidewalk without a helmet. He argued that because he was not on the "roadway" that he was not required to have a helmet. The court ruled that the the intent of the law was safety and that it did not make sense for the legislature to want to protect kids on the road, but not on the sidewalk. The same can be argued for the bike light. While it may be challenged, for the time being, you must have all required safety equipment whether on the street or on the sidewalk.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by Roadblock
08.23.10 - 12:48 pm
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"We're tired of our lives being managed to THAT degree and having to worry when we see an officer because they are ABLE to nit-pick our lives."
Easy solution. Follow the law or choose not to and face the penalty.
I am tired of people not being responsible for their choices. "At what point is it appropriate to enforce the law?" I think you should re-frame the question at what point is it appropriate to follow the law.
Foldie responding to a
comment by md2
08.23.10 - 12:48 pm
reply
Hi md2,
1) Does a small group of people riding to a donut shop need to be policed?
2) Do you want your day-today life scrutinized to THAT degree?
I certainly do not think so...but depending on their behavior it may be justified on a case by case basis. Of course when it is a large scale ride (like LACM) then the presence of law enforcement is warranted simply because of the impact it has.
3) Even is riding without lights is dangerous:
a. how does a citation help?
b. Why not just explain about the dangers? help educate?
c. What other options could an officer do in this scenario?
By writing a citation it forces you to actually get the proper eqiupment in order to have the ticket signed off. Experiance showns that people who are warned to fix equipment violation usually never do...or do so significantly later. An ideal solution would be if cycling advocates and organizations donate lights and cycle related equipment to law enforcment so that when we pull you over for no front light...we can give you a light instead of a ticket.
4) How many people believe citations are more than an inconvenience?
Just keep in mind that the bulk of equipment violations are given to motorists for no headlamp, no brake light, cracked windshields, etc. While I know its a pain...its a pain you share with all the other users of the roadway. Same rights, same responcibilities, and unfortunately same inconveniances.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by md2
08.23.10 - 1:08 pm
reply
i understand laws were put in place to protect our rights, but the enforcement of such laws should be guided by COMMON SENSE and DECENCY/EMPATHY.
i appreciate the job that police officers do on a daily basis, but my general opinion is, unless there has been a COMPLAINT of some sort, don't go around ticketing/citing people for petty violations. IMO if no one was hurt/offended, then it's not a crime (of course there are exceptions to this opinion, but those will have to be considered on a case-by-case basis).
tfunk40808.23.10 - 1:34 pm
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A little digression can go along way not only in improving the public's opinion of the police force but also making interactions between the two less hostile and officers job's easier.
On the matter of tickets I received a ticket for biking on bus property 640(b)(10) but the posted signage makes no mention of bikes and in the section of the penal code it states "does not apply to an activity that is necessary for utilization of the transit facility" and believe me I was utilizing the facility. Going to fight the ticket any advice would be appreciated.
I made a complaint in regards to the officers behavior in that it was unprofessional. He had me read the sign to him and when confronted that the sign didn't say what he thought it said he just dug in and and kept his stance. He asked me "are you rich? as some sort of bullying tactic and even had his partner run my ID. I assume he was expecting he was going to find that I was an escaped murderer. Who knows...
After filing my complaint I was told because it was a "he said he said" my complaint was being thrown out. Womp womp...
nopotholes08.23.10 - 2:04 pm
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What is the likelihood that they would actually hand out the light and not just give the ticket though?
Couldn't Metro give some of their blinkee lights to LAPD to help with that? How many lights would LAPD need?
I would be happy to render my services as a grantwriter, pro bono, to raise funds to buy lights that LAPD could hand out instead of cite, but I would want to know that a policy shift came from upstairs to the rank and file to know to hand out the lights instead of ticket.
danceralamode responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
08.23.10 - 2:16 pm
reply
Interesting, sounds quite progressive.
nopotholes responding to a
comment by danceralamode
08.23.10 - 2:25 pm
reply
Hi nopotholes,
Unfortunately the only place to dispute the merits of a ticket are in court and not via the complaint process. If there was no signage and your were utilizing the facility then you should prevail in court...of course this means you do have to take the day and go sown and deal with the hassle of the process.
The complaint is another matter. While it is a he said/he said type complaint it is incorrect to say it is beig thrown out. If it is LAPD the complaint will be "unresoved" which means that no negative action will be taken against the officer for the alledged unprofessionalism...THIS TIME. However, if the officer has several unresolved complaints in his file for the same type of allegation then a pattern of conduct can be inferred. Future complaints for the same type of actions are more likely to be sustained even if it is a he said/he said complaint with no additional witnesses.
So even if you think you accomplish nothing by complaining you must look at the big picture and realize that you are still contributing to correcting bad behavior.
One thing though...keep in mind that a complaint is a serious matter and that you should only file one if you truely believe that the officer's conduct was out of line. Just like writing you a ticket in retaliation for a contempt of cop situation is wrong...making a complaint out of anger or to retaliate against an officer for doing his job is wrong.
Good luck in court!
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by nopotholes
08.23.10 - 2:26 pm
reply
For the first LACM I was out there handing out rear lights that Metro donated to the LAPD...but all they could spare at the time was 50 lights. If we have them we will give them out. Since we have met several times I will discuss the particulars with you soon.
David
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by danceralamode
08.23.10 - 2:29 pm
reply
Great. I will most likely be at LACM this week, so maybe I'll see you there.
danceralamode responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
08.23.10 - 3:09 pm
reply
Hi back,
I believe that the hassle is well worth the vindication. I might even do trial by deceleration to cut back on some of the hassle.
He was with the Metro Sheriff's Department so I don't know if that's a different division of the LAPD? And to clarify the Sgt said my complaint was closed not thrown out.
The complaint in my mind was justified because in our back and forth I asked him so the end result of this is that I'm gonna go to court talk to the judge and explain the lack of proper signage and have the ticket dismissed and pay a 15 dollar dismissal fee. He said "Yes!" that I was getting the ticket because "I had to have the last word"and now that (I have to take the day off of work and gown down to the court house and deal with it). Indicating that he understood that the ticket was bogus to begin with and that I was being cited because I was unwilling to go along with his misunderstood knowledge of the posted signage.
Seriously that's a justification for signing a $250 ticket to a poor college student during a recession?
Thanks, sorry for the rant.
nopotholes responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
08.23.10 - 3:10 pm
reply
Hi nopotholes,
The Sheriffs Department is contracted to police the Metro...while they operate within the City of Los Angeles and within LAPD jurisdiction...they are an entirely different organization and have their own policies and procedures. I was commenting on the LAPD complaint process. I have no knowledge of how the Sheriff's handle complaints and if he says it was thrown I would seek clarification. The LAPD does not throw out complaints!!!
P.S. Trials by declaration tend to go against you based on anacdotal info I have received.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by nopotholes
08.23.10 - 3:18 pm
reply
I had a different reply that i deleted, but I think we're all going to run in circles because we seem to be arguing from "doing or job" versus "we hate a lot of what you see as doing your job". I think it's combined with a real sense of being on the receiving end of being policed, versus doing the policing. All of which, why am I spending time with this on a forum?
I wish I could be as simple as Foldie, but I can't. (actually I don't want to have his perspective). I still can't believe he wrote that response.
If my stepping away from the discussion is seen as a cop out, sorry... I just think I'm doing a disservice to Krumer and others who are working together at this point.
md2 responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
08.23.10 - 3:49 pm
reply
lets protest this by drinking in a 7-11 parking lot and acting like a bunch of fucking babies.
ruinedbyidiots08.23.10 - 11:54 pm
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"Now we all have to take our bikes to court with lights and pay fee. FFFF UUUU COPS! (not all)"
Aww boo fucking hoo- im sick of hearing these illegit complaints about lights and cops harassing...you were asking for it. Seriosly though, how hard is it to put a Godamn light on your bike...the same amount of money you pay for those fixit tickets will have bought you lights brainiac. Cops are gonna harass you if you ask for it-you got what you deserve. Be cool n they leave you alone-fundamentals.
amodone08.24.10 - 12:46 am
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P.S. Trials by declaration tend to go against you based on anacdotal(sic) info I have received.
Hi Sgt. David Krumer
Have you ever had a traffic citation that you have issued to be contested by a Trial By Declaration?
If so, did you respond to it?
Does the LAPD allot time for officers to respond to a citation contested by the Trial By Declaration method?
sexy responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
08.24.10 - 3:01 am
reply
I have always responded...but at times the trials by declaration do get lost or do not get to the officer in time and as a result the ticket is dismissed.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by sexy
08.24.10 - 10:53 am
reply
MD2: "We're tired of our lives being managed to THAT degree and having to worry when we see an officer because they are ABLE to nit-pick our lives."
Foldie replies: "Easy solution. Follow the law or choose not to and face the penalty.
I am tired of people not being responsible for their choices. "At what point is it appropriate to enforce the law?" I think you should re-frame the question at what point is it appropriate to follow the law. "
You do realize that the US legal code is over 27,000 pages long and there is no way you won't be breaking the law if a cop follows you long enough? Good luck following the "law" lol
Antranik responding to a
comment by Foldie
08.24.10 - 10:55 am
reply
"Does the LAPD allot time for officers to respond to a citation contested by the Trial By Declaration method?"
If your question is, do officers get paid to respond to a trial by declaration?
Yes, yes of course they do.
Antranik responding to a
comment by sexy
08.24.10 - 10:56 am
reply
Officer must respond during their regular (paid) duty hours...they are allotted time and do not get paid extra.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by Antranik
08.24.10 - 11:26 am
reply
Looks like you got this well under control Sgt. David Krumer. Have a good day and be safe out there.
Officer Friendly08.24.10 - 11:29 am
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I really wish police officers wouldn't be so damn mean to people, especially kids, when they stop them for bike offenses. But I guess they deal with the worst of society on a daily basis and that's bound to get your guard up at all times. I'd like to believe it's not just to be cruel.
Even so, is there a way to make it easier for people to get their hands on bike lights since they are mandatory? Maybe some kind of coupon or discount that people can get? If not for adults, then maybe just for kids. I'm not really sure how any of that would work or the cost involved but I'm just thinking out loud here. I've seen some at Target for like $20 per light and that's pretty pricey. My bf settled for a headlamp that was $6 and strapped it to his bike. So I can see how the cost can stop some individuals or families from buying them.
graciela08.24.10 - 12:11 pm
reply
Well, you can always go to the 99 Cent Store. They usually have red blinkee lights and you can buy a flashlight and strap it to your handlebars. Problem solved. =)
danceralamode responding to a
comment by graciela
08.24.10 - 12:27 pm
reply
Like danceralamode suggested you can strap a light to your bike...just keep in mind it does have to be "affixed" to the bike which means straped, taped, or secured in some other way to the bike itself. Holding it in your hand or holding it against the handlebar does not count.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by danceralamode
08.24.10 - 12:44 pm
reply
The 99 cent store! I didn't think about that. Thanks for the tip.
graciela08.24.10 - 3:11 pm
reply
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