So... nearly hit a cyclist today
Thread started by
chunk at 05.24.07 - 8:45 pm
Just want to throw this out and see what the peanut gallery thinks of this...
A littler earlier today, I took a ride to Home Depot with my girlfriend who was doing the driving. While she's not a bike commuter, she's a very avid cyclist (done the AIDS ride several times) and a very attentive driver.
I myself have driven my car exactly twice this month and bike commute from Los Feliz to Century City and carry the LACBC's rules of the road guide in my wallet for a quick and easy point of reference.
Hope you're still with me. I just wanted to set the table.
So, we're at the corner of Santa Monica and Vine and are about to make right onto Santa Monica from the right turn lane.
The red light becomes a green light and after the intersection clears of folks making their left turns, we go on our merry way for about five feet before my girlfriend slams on the brakes and we jinx ourselves by yelling "Holy Shit!" at the exact same time.
Her car stopped about six inches short of hitting a cyclist who (after figuring out just how he got there) made his left turn onto Vine by riding through a red light and the crosswalk and made his turn by cutting up from the far right lane directly in the face of oncoming traffic. Apparently using the left turn lane didn't make too much sense to him.
When our hearts crawled back into our respective chests, we started talking about the accident that nearly happened.
We pretty much decided right away that this guy probably wasn't a cyclist due to DUI or someone out on their first bike ride. In the glimpse we saw of him, I did notice he was on a decent hybrid bike and had a bright green Chrome bag that he was wearing way too low. Also he was wearing a red hoodie sweatshirt and no helmet to hide his bushy brown hair. (If this sounds like it could be you, it probably was so you better keep reading.)
If we weren't completely snared in traffic (yay) we would have booked it back up to Vine to give the guy a heads up about how he nearly got creamed by a pair of cyclists.
I don't know, I just really feel weird about this whole thing. It really feels terrible nearly hitting someone but on the other hand how much remorse should you really feel when the accident wouldn't have been your fault?
I mean part of me just wants to beat some sense into the guy- I know it would hurt a lot less than being drilled by a car. But, if we would have hit the guy it would have so clearly been his fault. And, the said truth is I wouldn't have thought twice about saying "Sorry Charlie but you damaged my girlfriend's car. Hope you can pay for it" because it's really hard to feel bad for such blatant stupidity.
Any thoughts?
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OK, I just drew out a little diagram based on your description, and if I understand the situation correctly, yeah, it sucks that cyclist did that. I can relate to the feeling of having a close call (almost hitting someone.)
Some people feel entitled, I guess, and sometimes when they act like they're entitled, it comes at the expense of others. That guy might feel entitled to the road, so drivers have to slam the brakes and then get freaked out because they almost hit him. Bummer.
Bells are good for that: if you're going to pull sketchy shit, at least let people know you're coming.
Thanks for posting. As a cyclist it's easy to forget the driver's perspective.
City Hobgoblin05.24.07 - 9:07 pm
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Shit happens. Cyclists make mistakes. Like someone told me, Cyclists probably are the cause of most accidents with vehicles. I mean, think about it. One doesn't have the time to think on a bike like a driver does in tight spots...
At least you weren't an ass like most drivers can be.
Today I saw a ton of cyclists going home on the sidewalk going the wrong direction. I wanted to yell at them, "Get on the street and own the road!". And i'm in a car...
I really wish more cyclists would ride in the road like they are supposed to. I get really dissapointed when I see people riding in the crosswalks and sidewalks when it's obviously unnessesary. I can understand times when it is needed though. Certain streets, etc.
Anyways, Drivers should look out for cyclists as much as we do for drivers. But being on a bike doesnt make one exempt from having to follow the rules of a vehicle. Even if we run red lights and shit, it's obvious when we can and when we shouldn't.
Joe Borfo05.24.07 - 9:24 pm
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here's a ruff sketch i drew up in the kitchen waiting for water to boil.
hope it helps.
chunk05.24.07 - 9:47 pm
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This may be a case of an unexperienced rider not knowing that he can get up into the intersection at the left turn lane, no? Or am I stating the obvious?
tern05.24.07 - 9:57 pm
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The drawing tells it all, I think. You should work for the people's court!! [laughs]
tern05.24.07 - 9:59 pm
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shit happens
is there such a thing as both at fault? %
dannyzuko05.24.07 - 10:12 pm
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um...
wanna try to explain that one?
chunk05.24.07 - 10:18 pm
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Hollywood is full of incredibly inexperienced 'cyclists' who ride the sidewalks constantly.
One day on my way to work (yeah I was driving that day) I nailed a cyclist who was riding on the sidewalk. The guy came out of nowhere and flew into the intersection @ the crosswalk just as I was making a left. To make matters worse, the sun was angeled in such a way that when you headed east you would get blasted in the face by it at about a 30-40 degree angle along the horizon. Either way there was no way in hell I could have seen him.
Needless to say, the last thing I saw was the backlit silhouette of a cyclist, I heard a loud thump, and then saw a silhouette flying through the air in the fetal position. I wanted to explain to him how dangerous the sidewalks can be, but my spanish skills are not so great.
kyber05.24.07 - 10:22 pm
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Um, I don't know, but I think dannyzuko was in the same realm as no-fault divorce, or dual-fault murders, or something....I don't know...I'm just having some fun talking about this stuff.
tern05.24.07 - 10:24 pm
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in litigation most accidents end up in an at fault scenario of a percentage,
remember a car should not enter the intersection until it's clear, even is sum dumbass doesn't know what he's doin. good thing no one got hurt
dannyzuko05.24.07 - 10:36 pm
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Yeah, I want to see the Dannymeister get out of this one..
Joe Borfo05.24.07 - 10:37 pm
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oh wait. Danny just gave it to us hard.
Joe Borfo05.24.07 - 10:38 pm
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you like that didn't you
whos your papi
seriously I'm not the CHP or DOT, just been in so many accidents no one will insure me:(
dannyzuko05.24.07 - 10:51 pm
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Here is a different perspective.
Sounds like the guy was riding crazy alleycat style. When you do that you usually get through cars and pedestrians, because you are riding with such precision, you see what’s happening and you go for it, and make it through safely.
Can this be done without getting hurt> It is done all the time. Do you scare the shit out of people like what happened to you and your girlfriend. Probably happens all the time.
Is it right? I don't think it is cool to freak people out. He was able to do his move and not get hurt. I think all of us have pulled those stunts one time or another. Some people do it all the time. Races are won by doing it. As long as one doesn't get hurt, they don't get hurt. I always say, "if you go up against a car, and even it just barely touches you, you are going to lose, there is no way of getting around that. The car doesn't suffer the repercussions of the accident, you do.
None of us are prefect, and we do things, take chances or not see something that could cause a collision with another, and fortunately, the other person does see us, and maneuvers or stops. Are you an ass hole for that? I don't think so, but other people tend to get so worked up about it. It seems you to did, in a sense.
The most important thing about this is that the bicyclist didn't get hurt. If he did, it would of rocked his world. Should you have felt bad about it? I can't tell anybody, how they should feel, I know I would feel bad, maybe not as bad if I saw that it was clearly the other person fault. I don't like to see anybody hurt, even if it was their fault.
Some folks have this mentality that you have to slap some sense into people. I disagree, if that guy was hurt, even it being 95% to 100% his fault, to come out and say "Sorry Charlie but you damaged my girlfriend's car. Hope you can pay for it" because it's really hard to feel bad for such blatant stupidity. That to me, is just mean. If you hit that guy, he would of been pretty bad off. To think, "your an idiot, you got to pay for my metal", when the person just got hit by a car, I have to ask you to ask yourself, do you really value a human life less, if someone makes a stupid mistake? What harm do you think that you hitting him would do to your girl's car? I value humans more then anything in this world (even stupid ones, Hi Joe). There would be no physical harm that would come to you or your girl if you did hit him. You might of been mentally shaken up, with a rush of "flight or fight" (parasympathetic response), but you would of walked (or driven) away.
I'm not saying you would necessarily do what you said. You did think it, and those thoughts came from somewhere. A big problem we have with human relations, especially when traveling (be it car, bike, or pedestrian) if another person makes a mistake, by blantely doing something they shouldn't of, or not paying attention, we tend to feel like that person should be punished. Then we get pissed at the person, our blood boils hot, at best we have anger engulfing our soul (and leave it at that), or it could escalate and we yell, or we do worse with physical damage. Getting pissed to begin with does nobody any good, especially yourself.
I do thank you for sharing your incident with us. I hope people realize that it not worth it to do some crazy move, so you don't have to wait like the rest of traffic, with the risk of injuring yourself.
I hope also people see that it is not respectful to do that to someone just because they are in a car, and even though there is no way you can hurt them by colliding with them while your on your bike, that it is harsh on their psyche.
sexy05.24.07 - 11:57 pm
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I think there should be bike safety rules in spanish.
I live in Korea town, and there are a lot of riders who don't speak a word of english and they ride on the sidewalk going the wrong way. To be honest they just don't know the rules of the road when it comes to cycling. These are the peeps that give us a bad name.
SIdewalks are dangerous to cyclists and to pedestrians. I just need to refresh my spanish and find out how to yell "get off the sidewalk and onto the street!"
<3
feelingrandy05.25.07 - 2:42 am
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aye, same here, Pomona's more than a majority spanish, hell one of my neighbors calls the landlady up to translate for her (sort of) if she needs to talk to me or my roommate.
I speak like zero spanish, I know some french but spanish is totally incomprehensible to me, and I wish I knew some, for the same reason, to try to convince the people I see around me to ride where they should be, that and to order from taco trucks.
FuzzBeast05.25.07 - 3:07 am
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"Entitlement" / alleycat, my ass. Dude was just scared to get into the left lane to turn, or didn't know to do it. I vote for the latter. Going from the traffic lanes into the crosswalk at intersections is almost a sure sign that a rider doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.
PC05.25.07 - 3:09 am
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¡A la calle! ¡A la calle!
PC05.25.07 - 3:12 am
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which means?
Anyway, yeah, my vote on seeing the diagram was the lack of knowing thing as well, looks like he was making some sort of attempt at the whole two crosswalks thing. Hell I've been asked, while sitting in the left turn lane next to cars, "what the fuck are you doing". People always look totally bewildered when you explain that that is what you're supposed to do, usually they answer "but bikes are supposed to be on the right"... to which I answer, I am, of the lane I'm in.
I think one of the biggest things about the hwole bikes on the right thing that people don't understand is that it has nothing to do with being a bike, it has to do with speed. In fact the law only states that bikes need to stay to the right when they are slower than area traffic:
21202:
(a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:
They really should re-word the part about the riding right next to the curb... it makes people who don't ride much ride in stupid and dangerous patterns.
If you're going traffic speed (or above) you're supposed to act like a car completely, which means you get full use of the half of the road, not just one lane. Or, if you're lane-splitting stuck traffic, you can use the entire half as well.
(oh and section b of 21202 says that if you're on a one way, you can use either side of the road)
FuzzBeast05.25.07 - 3:35 am
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which means?
"To the street! To the street!"
Spanish being kind of a florid language, it's best sometimes to chop your message down as much as you can while still being understood. Oh, and smile when you say it. I mean, you're not this person's dad, you know?
Hell I've been asked, while sitting in the left turn lane next to cars, "what the fuck are you doing".
"Riding my bike. The fuck's it look like I'm doing?"
PC05.25.07 - 3:41 am
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funny enough the equipment section also outlaws ordinary bicycles (aka penny-farthings or high wheels)
FuzzBeast05.25.07 - 3:42 am
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Some great points in this thread. I write slow, so I might be covering some old stuff.
It's easy to get caught up in an "us vs. them" mentality when you're cycling on public streets, since the laws and infrastructure overwhelmingly favor high-speed auto traffic. Ultimately, though, I think that respecting the other road users by riding predictably is the smart way to go, especially since the repercussions of an accident for us as cyclists are so severe. Of course, the problem is that so many people - drivers and cyclists alike - seem to be completely ignorant of cyclists' rights on the road and how they should be expected to behave.
A lot of people at the Bike to Work ride were talking about educating drivers using advertising, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for some official agency to do that. Might be funny to get some ridazz together and develop a guerilla PSA for youtube. Then again, it might not - I'm not a filmmaker, so I really don't know exactly how difficult it would be to pull off something that's not embarrassing.
As far as left turns go, I think a lot of solo cyclists get intimidated by crossing several lanes of traffic to get in the left turn lane. If there's a lot of traffic, sometimes I'll just do a box turn (using the traffic light to cross), which is kind of wimping out, but a lot less stressful.
angle05.25.07 - 5:26 am
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Maybe it's time for a multi-lingual "Bikes on the Street! CVC #21202" campaign? The more people we can get riding correctly in traffic (on the road, in the right direction) the safer it is for all of us: cyclists, motorists, and pedestrians. I'm not sure which is the right organization to do this, but I think it should be a primary goal of the LACBC.
mr rollers05.25.07 - 8:53 am
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PSA...
I wrote that on the petition to the Mayor on Bike to work Day...
We should make Guerila PSA, and post them everywhere.
PSA SHARE THE ROAD!!!
feelingrandy05.25.07 - 9:29 am
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In past conversations, I have brought up that some people are scared to ride on the street. I'am thankful that in Los Angeles you can legally ride on a sidewalk I respect that some people are intimidated to ride on the streets. I don't feel that is the problem with drivers, but as always it lack of education. I applude anyone who takes to the bicycle as a form a transportation. I will encourage those that do, to do what they feel is right for them. Remember when a car hits you, its you who has to deal with the repurcussion. Telling someone who isn't comfortabel riding on the street, to ride on the street is not respecting their own autonomy.
When i say education, I mean the whole book that you are suppose to know before you get a licence to drive. People think the left lane on the highway is for fastest moving traffic, which it is, but it doesn't alway you to go faster then the posted speed limit. So if your going 65 in the fastest lane and someone wants to go 80, they look at you like your in the wrong. Slow down in those car. Save gas, save money save lifes.
Ye, bicyclist have to respect the rules of the road. Automobile have a great responsiblity due to the fact that the vechiles they are driving, can be and are deadly, when colliding with another object.
sexy05.25.07 - 9:50 am
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even if its your fault or not, hitting a cyclist or pedestrian is a huge responsibilty.
To act like there is no guilt involved while using americas deadliest weapon is ridiculous. A right hand turn especially in a high traffic city should be taken with extreme caution.
The accident didnt happen so everythings cool. The discussions shouldn't be about who is following the rules but about who is paying attention.
if a car veers into a cyclist by accident and kills them, its hard to get the car driver on anything.
if a bike accidently veers into a car and gets killed, people act like the cyclists is an idiot.
cars kill, bicycles dont (*)
(*exclusions include massive peletons and driving off cliffs)
pacino05.25.07 - 10:39 am
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KYBER writes "Hollywood is full of incredibly inexperienced 'cyclists' who ride the sidewalks constantly."
well what about all the inexperienced auto drivers. all the people on cell phones, and idiots not paying attention? Impatient drivers and just don't give a shit about anything but how fast they can get to point B.
Is it possible we live in the most impatient country in the world?
The infamous california rolling stop is the reason so many people get hit. Pedestrians and cyclists a like.
and some places it is legal to ride a bicycle on the sidewalks, so lets cut some slack.
pacino05.25.07 - 10:46 am
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"¡A la calle!" = Ah Lah Kai-yay
I want to help work on a Gurerilla PSA - in español too!
Sexy said - "Some folks have this mentality that you have to slap some sense into people. I disagree"...
Then why do you like to slap me around so? You big bully!!
Joe Borfo05.25.07 - 10:48 am
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Joe, I know you. You deserve it.
Joe I'm doing this for your own good, you will thank me later.
sexy05.25.07 - 10:53 am
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And, it is on my list of "things to do"
sexy05.25.07 - 10:57 am
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I agree that we need to encourage and educate cyclists, but my point is that it's not always just cars vs. bikes. As a pedestrian, I've come close on several occasions to being hit by bicyclists riding carelessly on the sidewalk. I also came close to having a bad accident due to a cyclist riding the wrong way in the bike lane on Sunset; I had to swerve to avoid him and almost put myself into the path of a car that was travelling properly in its lane.
Maybe I'm being naive or idealistic, but I think most traffic rules exist for a reason and that we should obey them, because failure to do so can bring consequences not just for ourselves, but for others, too.
The more that we can get cyclists riding safely and legally on the roads, the more power we stand to gain. We're essentially "preaching to the converted" on this forum; the challenge as I see it is to find a way to reach out to the potential converts.
mr rollers05.25.07 - 10:58 am
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shrug.
There are tons of dumb people (cyclists, motorist, pedestrians, horse drawn carriage operators) in LA.
But you know what? If you want to ride on the sidewalk in the WRONG direction, and disobey traffic laws (IE: common sense) be my guest. But don't complain when you get hit due to your own stupidity and carelessness. In my case, there was absolutely no way for me to avoid hitting this guy, and he was completely and 100% at fault. And then he whines that he needs medical attention when there isn't a scratch on him and no way he could have had internal injuries? Sorry guy, I got nothin' for you. I'm living just as rough as you are, and can't afford your medical expenses. Hell, I don't even have health insurance either.
kyber05.25.07 - 11:14 am
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Rollers-
In my opinion, you hit it dead on. No pun intended.
kyber05.25.07 - 11:17 am
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Rules, in general, are intended and designed to keep things FAIR & SAFE. It applies to sports, it applies to traffic, it applies to using bathrooms. [wash your fucking hands!].
The bike rider wasn't obeying simple and just traffic rules, chuck's GF WAS able to hit the brakes in time, and not cream some idiot (doesn't matter if he's on a bike, or walking). So it's done, it's over. No one got hurt.
The problem is people aren't educated where and when it matters, when they are young. The danish are taught to ride bikes and taught the rules of the road in elementary school. In america, especially in cities with a history of Car-Culture, we're taught that the Streets are Cars, Sidewalks are for people, and bikes are for recreation (and belong on in the parks or on dirt). It's clearly no-longer the case in the oil-strapped world. Bikes, and other people powered forms of transportation, are part of our future. We're at the beginning of this change, so it's up to us make the changes in vehicle codes, etc.
Does anyone know if P.S.A.s actually work, statistically? I mean, I see all these TV ads to quit smoking, i still see tons of smokers.
the reverend dak05.25.07 - 11:34 am
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Cause and effect isn't an easy thing to prove, especially when it comes to human behavior, but if you look at the stats, far few fewer people in California are smoking now. I suspect the cause is due to several factors, all the more reason to take a multi-faceted approach.
mr rollers05.25.07 - 11:41 am
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Let us spread the gospel reverend!
In the name of the Crank, the Hub, and of the Holy Sprocket. Amen!
Joe Borfo05.25.07 - 11:43 am
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I'm not entirely certain how well PSAs would work, but if it is true that (for instance) lots of inexperienced cyclists don't know how to make a left hand turn properly, then a PSA could make them aware that there's a right way to do it.
I don't think it's terribly obvious how to cycle effectively in traffic, and the only way I've learned is by reading John Forester's "Effective Cycling" and "The Art of Urban Cycling", along with online forums and lots of my own real-world experience. If some of that information can be put in a PSA to give new and potential cyclists a template for street riding, I think it might be helpful.
angle05.26.07 - 3:55 am
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I was riding to trader joes on La Brea. When I was waiting to cross the street on third the 16 bus passed by...
and on the back of this bus was a SHARE THE ROAD P.S.A.
I wish I could have taken a picture of it, but the bus was too fast.
feelingrandy05.29.07 - 2:11 pm
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"...and had a bright green Chrome bag that he was wearing way too low."
anyone else notice how irrelivent fashion and comfortability preferences are mentioned in the forums?
yeah, we're all so cool.
meandmybluebike05.31.07 - 1:34 pm
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I didn't see anyone mention this...SO I'M GONNA SAY IT!
Far too often do I see right-turning cars blocking the entire curbside of the crosswalk, doing the creep-out-and-look thing. Peds either end up walking behind the car...or in front and out into the intersection.
Is it possible that the cyclist was gonna pull a street to crosswalk, to curb maneuver, only to find that as he got to the curbside it was blocked by a car? So in a split decision, decided to head with traffic? You know how it is when you're riding with no destination in mind...meh!
Eric Hair05.31.07 - 2:12 pm
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I've had to dodge my share of imbiciles on bikes; it's a good thing your girlfriend was an alert driver. I can't drive worth a shit myself; poor bastard would have been grille candy if that was me. I would have used what was left of his bilke to "Pimp My Ride" into a piece of rolling safety awareness art. Don't worry, it would be all for the best...
Samhain06.1.07 - 5:44 pm
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