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Wow, what an awesome Critical Mass. The route was great, the police were cool, but most importantly the riders were respectful. When everyone works together, you can get 500-600 riders to have ride right and have fun at the same time.
WOW a big WOW again this Lacm was the shiznizz the police was working with us and errrthing..great route..I seen barlame with another crowd of riders what they missed on haha..
My son and I had a great time. The route, the riderzz, and the cops kept it cool. Even after 1 1/2 hours I did not see one ticket being given,compared to about 5 or more in the first 5 minutes of last months ride.
I haven't been on this ride for a few months, it was awesome tonight.
I never saw one ticket being given out. There must have been at least 500 riders too.
Lots of girls too. If only all rides could be like this one.
You know what, I heard the ride went great. Originally I was one of the voices of skeptisim and resistance At the thought of giving the police a route for LACM. But After giving it more thought and after hearing the preliminary reports about the cooperation and smooth ride I'm changing my opinion on the matter.
Think about it. LACM can be an institution of the city and a great way to build a relationship with the cops who we as vulnerable road users need on our side.
I didnt end up going on any of the rides tonight cause I rode a long commute today but all the twitter feeds seem like people were having a good time.
I say just be open about giving the cops a route, let the community weigh in about it and embrace it. Both sides win. Congratulations.
Until the next time they start giving out tickets and harassing ridazz. The crys will call foul. There will be many Sgt Krumer threads with questions and complaints. Then they will give you a good ride, and the thread will say how great, we should always work with those who will ticket us to prise money out of us or take us to jail. Then they will give you tickets the next month. You folks are fickle as the wind. It will go back and fourth and on and on.
It would be a great service to yourselves if you would attempt to remember the past.
If they bite you once they will bite you twice and they will bite you again and again. Just because they play nice every now and then the tiger never changes his stripes, the leopard never changes their spots.
Until the next time they start giving out tickets and harassing ridazz. The crys will call foul. There will be many Sgt Krumer threads with questions and complaints. Then they will give you a good ride, and the thread will say how great, we should always work with those who will ticket us to prise money out of us or take us to jail. Then they will give you tickets the next month. You folks are fickle as the wind. It will go back and fourth and on and on.
It would be a great service to yourselves if you would attempt to remember the past.
If they bite you once they will bite you twice and they will bite you again and again. Just because they play nice every now and then the tiger never changes his stripes, the leopard never changes their spots.
What ever happened to the officer that kicked the guy off his bike in hollywood? Was he disciplined? The only reason the police are "working" with you is damage control. I'm not naysaying...just reminding you all to think realistically about the "relationship" you are starting with the police...they ticketed multiple riders last month..you got lucky this month...what will happen next month? I hope it all works out for us..
Can krumer let us know about the officer?
I picked up the ride on Jefferson near La Cienega. You got to hand it to the LACM, they have learned to utilize Social Networking. Just by following a few select people on Twitter or checking in with FB, you know where the ride is and where it's heading.
What struck me was the age of this huge ride, 18-25 mostly. A young and very enthusiastic group of bicycle riders who have rejected cars and turned to other means of transportation.
I tried to find the Old Man's AlternativeCM, but they don't seem to use FB or Social Networks.
Oh well, the younger, larger LACM was fun.
It wasn't Luck Barleye it was a trade. The LAPD has been asking for a route since the beginning. Those requests were resisted on principal of keeping LACM leaderless and routeless as is traditional across the world. However... The fact is that most of the riders on CM are youngsters who likely have no idea about the origins of CM or care about the concept, they just like to ride their bikes and at the end of the day
that's what matters. Keeping CM "anarchy" and so forth is old world hippie shit. LA has huge problems with accepting bikes on the streets and cyclists need a working relationship with the LAPD so we need to change our concept of how CM is run.
Since Palucha decided to give the cops a route the cops made good on their promise to treat LACM like a parade and escort it. That has been
the LAPD's promise. If there is a route they won't ticket. I believe they
will keep that promise. I'd like to hear it confirmed from Sgt. Krumer but this is what I believe is the deal.
If people had a fun time and rode their bikes, thats fine by me.
However, if there is a route and its being transmitted to the the cops: THAT IS NOT CRITICAL MASS.
There is nothing wring with this.
Not every ride needs to be a Critical Mass.
However, it should be made clear to everybody that while they may expect a fun ride that is facilitated by the cops it is not a Critical Mass ride.
I have no interest in fighting anybody who wants to give the cops a route every month.
But I think we should all stick together and make sure everybody knows that that ride is no longer a Critical Mass and should and should cede the title of LACM to the other critical masses being held on the last friday of the month in LA at other locations.
If that is done, this will indeed be a win win for everybody.
I posted the info on this website, ding dong! We met up with Ninjabiker's ride too. It was really lots of fun and NO EFFING COPS because we were riding legally and respectfully the entire time. A destination was announced, so nobody got lost and all met up going in many different ways.
LACM should try this too, but I'm not going to try to change LACM anymore. I'm making change in how we ride Alternatively to CM and ecourage other rides to happen at the same time that follow our 2 guidelines of following all rules and announcing a destination.
Ride on!
Old Borfo
Joe Borfo responding to a comment by urbanpedal
11.27.10 - 1:30 pm
Call me an old hippie but I prefer to eat, sleep, work, fuck, ride a bike without a cop next to me.
If men in uniform turns you on please go to the Critical Cop ride. I love we have choices here in South Korea.
marino responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
11.27.10 - 2:59 pm
good luck trying to change the name.. win the war not the battle.
the rest of the world can cry about it, I cried about it for a minute and realized that it's a Pyrrhic victory trying to keep LACM "pure." and who are we trying to impress by keeping CM "pure". SF? NYC? a bunch of old anarchists? fuck em. The bike world out there looks down their noses at LA anyway - at least the bitter ones do... the rest of them come here and join the fun. this is LA and we do shit our own damn way. the rest of the world can go suck on Bike Snobs bitter balls. WE ARE LA WE DO IT DIFFERENT.
Roadblock responding to a comment by trickmilla
11.27.10 - 3:05 pm
according to a recent study, there are an average of six rides in LA per night listed on this website alone. That means that 179 times a month, you can ride in a group with no police escort whatsoever. You have choices. LACM is a parade for the kids. Let them have their escorted ride, it can be the institution of change for those kids if you are open minded about it. and the good news is that the alternate CM rides on the same night are pretty damn cool with all the fam bam in attendence.
Another good thing the organized LACM could do is encourage more families and such to join in on the festivities.
I mean, who would the 2-parent, 3-4 children nuclear family from the suburbs want to ride with when wanting to try something new on "family night out"?
The anarchist brigands? or the peaceful, organized mass of bicycles with a protective measure against those trying to harm it?
To each their own.
LACM and other non-politically charged rides will roll to the feel-good tunes of Huey Lewis and such.
The brigand brigade can bust their RATM all night long.
Chicago CM is what I based last night's Alt to CM.
Seriously, I've ridden Chicago CM. That's where I learned to yell Happy Friday.
The new direction is working. I also agree with Roadblock. If those kids want to ride a parade with the cops, then let them. Let LA do things their own way.
Most cities do not have Midnight Ridazz like we do.
Ride On and On and On and On!
Joe Borfo responding to a comment by alicestrong
11.27.10 - 3:31 pm
Critical Mass is not about a definition, it is about riding your bicycle on the road.
The leaderless, route-less inception was to insure that no one was responsible and thus no one was singled out, since running red lights and riding in both lanes is technically illegal. That was nearly twenty years ago. Now Critical Mass in Chicago, Budapest Hungary and now in Los Angeles, is a massive ride that needs guidance and protection from law enforcement. You have a whole new generation coming up, they own bicycles instead of cars. Once a month they get to ride without worrying about cars hitting them. They get to see parts of the city that they would never have ridden through (last night is an example). They are guided by LAPD through some red lights, but stop at others at the request of LAPD. So this new generation is enjoying their bicycles and learning to interact with law enforcement in a manner they would never have done before. It is a win-win? Yes. I will check out the old people's critical mass some time, but the young people's critical mass is much safer and it was a lot of fun.
I don't think you can say it was safer without knowing how we rode. We rode by the rules. We had no incidents. Don't compare unless you know from experience.
The whole old people reference to Old People is just ageist and dumb. We are the REBIRTH of CM and you can choose to follow or stay stale.
Joe Borfo responding to a comment by 328rides4ever
11.27.10 - 4:03 pm
Seems anyone over 25 is considered "old" now.
Pretty soon we'll all be required to have color-coded rubies in our palms that indicate when it's our time to be put down.
I've encountered people in their 80s that make people in their 50s look like the geriatric ones.
You people are all nuts. I wouldn't take my grand kids on either ride downtown at night. My wife would laugh at me if I even suggested it. I don't party with a police escort and the alternative ride just got lucky with their initial outing.
I took my kids for a ride around our local neck of the woods and stopped for hot chocolate mid ride and were home by 9. Everyone was happy. You all need to step back, take a coup[le of deep breaths and mellow out. Nobody in the general citizenry really gives a rats ass.
LACM Gave up its ideals and created a route at the request of the LAPD. Whats next? The LAPD will wait a few months and start ticketing people again. Then they'll use that as a bargaining chip to demand more concessions from LACM, such as letting LAPD veto certain routes or set a time limit for the ride.
@Palucha
Sorry bro I respect you but I think giving a route to the LAPD was a mistake and sets a bad precedent for giving up more of our rights to the police.
the best parts of doing the alt CM was we all pretty much knew each other....and....we hardly hit that many red lights.....and....we stopped ahead for others that hit red lights....and....we stuck together to fix a flat in less than 7 minutes....and....there were no cops to worry about....and....all good things start out slow and catch on.....this will be the new ALT lacm.....just like punk in 77 and the z boys in 75....it'll be the place to be in 2011
it's a trade off.... give the cops a route and stay a contiguous parade or... don't give the cops a route and get hounded for tickets / ride legal....
one thing is for sure, even if a bunch of people decided to ride legal, the other 300 kids wont be able to resist the temptation. this was probably the only decent outcome to this mess.
the alt CM rides looked really fun cause it's all the fam bam. soon enough the kids on LACM will grow older and get tired of the same ole same ole, split off into new smaller rides on their own, new leaders will emerge... rinse repeat. as long as more people get on their bikes who cares.
Roadblock responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
11.27.10 - 6:40 pm
I'm really pushing for ALL rides to follow a critical Manners approach.
Yeah, this is really hard but is necessary to continue to push for. Continually.
I really think it is important for group rides to start stopping at reds and leaving the left lane open.
I did not know a lot of riders last night. But we kept each other in check and also because we were all looking for something different than what we experience on LACM, it all worked well.
It's not an old person's opinion. It's just using common sense. We gotta go this way, guys.
Joe Borfo responding to a comment by Roadblock
11.27.10 - 6:47 pm
its a noble idea Borfo. I think it's really only a problem for rides that are more than 100 and the ticketing/police hounding issue is really only a problem on LACM...
Roadblock responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
11.27.10 - 7:08 pm
it's a trade off.... give the cops a route and stay a contiguous parade or... don't give the cops a route and get hounded for tickets / ride legal....
You don't see a problem with this. This is giving up the right to ride freely in a group of how ever many chooses to gather on the ride and to decide which way to go at what time to go in that direction. Yes you are giving up rides to freely assemble and travel.
I like the "Old Man" title. Those who know me know how I feel about many (but not all) of the youth that attend these rides (I really have fallen in love with the youth of this community, what little I got to know of them,,,Chynna, RayX3, taromoster, etc, not the punk asses on CM). As I get older my ways are changing. I like the idea of following traffic laws to the T. I find myself doing that exact thing in the last year. It is respectful of other vehicles and it's driver on the road. The respect that I want from other vehicles and that most of you cry about, yet give back.
We had the pre LA marathon bike ride, then we had cyclavia', now we have what is called but is not Critical Mass LA. COOL!
sexy you call most of the kids on CM punk asses? why specifically are you calling them punk asses? is it because they don't follow the rules? explain your characterization a little more....
also explain this: you claim you like to follow the rules to a T but then you poo poo the idea of LACM following rules? in this case the rules are: either provide a route (as per a permitted protest/parade) and stay contiguous with the support of an LAPD escort OR follow the rules of the road and get split up or ticketed for not following said rules of the road.... both scenarios follow the rules of the road. it's just a matter of choice.
YOU may choose to follow the rules of the road and abandon your right to assemble as a parade, but apparently the kids running LACM have decided to keep the mass together and be escorted like any other permitted parade / protest that happens in our society. personally, I dont believe that any protest or assembly should have to seek permission to exist but it's the reality on the ground. the LAPD has the ability to harass a non permitted parade into compliance. deal with it.
Riding with 30 or 40 people is cool and you can keep the group in check on your own, but when you get 500, 1000, or 1500 riders. How do you manage such a large group?
Last night LAPD kept everyone in the right two lanes and would block intersections so the group could stay together.
I like riding in small groups too, but that's all the other rides during the month.
When you ride 500-700 strong, it's just a great experience.
Yeah 75% of the riders were under 30 years old but there was a sizeable over 30 crowd, and they were cool too .I met a married couple who hadn't ridden a bike in years, they had a blast. There were people from Chicago, who had read about LACM and decided to try it on their vacation. They loved it, especially the warmer weather we have here. So in the end, everyone had a great time. How is that such a bad thing?
LAPD will not always cork forever. When they stop the riders will keep running the reds, blocking the left lanes and doing the circle of death. The cops will get aggressive, the drivers will get aggressive, and the riders will get aggressive. It's a DOWNWARD SPIRAL.
If you were only pay attention to the history of Critical Mass and the Police in the United States then you would know what the hell we are talking about here. My objective is for the image of cycling to improve in LA and everywhere. We can olnly get there by maintaining a positive and respectful stance towards riding on the streets. Otherwise, we're fucked.
@ RB
I challenge you to consider how you would feel if some kids in another city did a "midnight ridazz" ride but decided to to have a corporate sponsor or in some way have an aspect to the ride that would make it in most of our eyes not characteristic of what the stated goals of Midnight Ridazz are.
You know ... just doing it "their way".
"LA does it different" is a cop out.
Critical Mass is a VERY SIMPLE structure for a reason.
It is meant to be a viral direct action ride that belongs to the people.
And the structure "works" on some level the world over.
Its not that this new ride is any less than Critical Mass.
Its just not Critcial Mass.
Just as there is nothing wrong with a corporate sponsored ally cat ... but it would be a misnomer to call such a ride a "midnight ridazz".
I have no i'll will toward this new ride.
I just think people should know what they are getting into.
One way to assure that, is to change the name so people understand this is a different ride.
Calling a routed / police facilitated ride "Critical Mass" is misleading and confusing.
Borfo you have had six months to make Critical Mass different. I've ridden CM for two years straight and only seen you once. Its great to see you've posted your " Alternative" to CM one thing I don't like about you is the fact you spend so much time talking on the forums on how LACM should be how you want it. Want LACM to change? Why don't you actually do something for once instead of posting it on MR. Yea i gave the LAPD the route before hand because they promised to cork intersections and to be honest it was a great ride. I plan to work with the LAPD more often because this past Critical Mass was a success. LACM is changing with or without you.
it's not guerrilla warfare, but it's also not about working with the cops to separate cyclists from traffic and turn the ride into a "parade". it's about asserting our rights to ride the streets as a mass and coexisting with traffic. a police escort only makes LACM look like a novelty to the average motorist.
coldcut responding to a comment by sleepy
11.27.10 - 10:17 pm
the difference is that the Midnight Ridazz name is copyright protected.... I dont know if critical mass is or not but there is no money being made on LACM nor is there corporate sponsorship.... so it's not really a fair comparison...
maybe there is a case to change the LACM name.... I'm not sure, but it might be something that could be legally challenged if someone wants to pursue it.
Roadblock responding to a comment by trickmilla
11.27.10 - 10:19 pm
the difference is that most of the kids on LACM could care less about anarchy or leaderless riding... they just enjoy riding. think about it. most of them grew up with Midnight Ridazz rides as the norm. all of which have had leaders.... 7 years ago the average age of today's LACM riders was like 10 or 12 years old. CM in this city is changed for now. maybe someday the LAPD will choke the mass down to nothing. but for now they have the power to harass it with ticketing OR escorting it as a parade. The kids are enjoying it and building a relationship with the LAPD for the future. sure, it's not a legitimate "CM" because it has a route.... but what are you going to do to change that... do you have the energy to bother? Do the kids care? maybe you can change it and maybe you care enough to put in the time to get the name changed... to me it's a battle worth losing in order to win the war. definitely interesting to see how it all turns out.
Roadblock responding to a comment by trickmilla
11.27.10 - 10:41 pm
I've been riding CM since 2005, you little snot nosed shit.
Don't be resentful to me because you realize you are doing the stupid thing and riding a parade with the cops. Gee I wonder how this is going to end?
I have made attempts to persuade new ideas for LACM, but assholes like you have only given me resistance. When I attempted to implement Critical Manners for the ride the LAPD shows up and starts fucking corking for you guys. So now the cops are encouraging running reds? ... Gee, I wonder what mixed messages that will send to the riders. It is inevitable that they will stop corking and kids who don't even know how to drive will be riding irresponsibly forever.
I AM doing something, but I've given up on the lemmings and sheep that follow LACM.
MIDNIGHT RIDAZZ is the solution to CM.
There should be multiple rides all over town converging and re-converging while stopping at every fucking red, and leaving every goddamn left lane open.
This is how we make riding bikes better for LA. You may be too fucking dense to grasp this, but these are the fucking facts, prick!
Joe Borfo responding to a comment by palucha66
11.27.10 - 11:24 pm
I could try and say it better than Borfo, but I'd end up getting angry and calling all the wankers cunts, as I do when I've ridden with them. So instead of being negative, I decided to do something positive and something than takes away my anger. It's called ...............
Oh just read the above missive from Borfo...........
So as the man says, if LACM was/is about bicyclist rights..............wait, next time I'm out driving my car, I'll just run red lights swerve around cyclists and tough shit if you're in my way, you might get run over.
OR.....
We can earn respect and expect equal rights on the road by being sensible and believe it or not still have fun on our beautifully paved roads. Good NIght........
Limeyfly responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
11.27.10 - 11:57 pm
You attempted to implement Critical Manners by posting on the forums? The only person ive actually seen do something is AT. He successfully led the ride to the courthouse in Beverly Hills to protest. Where have you been? Midnight Ridazz isnt the solution to LACM either. Do you really think the 1500+ people that ride LACM go on Midnight Ridazz? On Friday a pack of riders and I made sure no one ran reds and we were successful. We gave a route to the LAPD twice and those two times it worked perfectly. So what if we are riding like a parade. Another reason we gave the cops a route was because of the whole ticketing issue. Most of the riders on LACM are my age, some even younger. They dont have a clue what Critical Mass is about. All they care about is riding their bikes. Like I said before, If you really want to LACM to change then stand up and do something. Dont look for alternatives, look for solutions.
palucha66 responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
11.28.10 - 12:41 am
Exactly!
Because most people going on the police parade do not know or care what a critical mass is ... IS the exact reason why that ride should no longer be called Critical Mass.
People are mostly not there to ride a critical mass. They are there for a fun ride with the cops. That's great! Lets just be fair to everybody and not confuse police parade with critical mass.
Because every other ride all month is NOT critical mass. All the more reason to have an actual critical mass (or several) for a few hours a month.
I don't think anything is lost here. Just changed.
The cops were looking for a particular solution and they found it.
If it keeps them out of our hair, I won't complain.
On the other hand, I also won't allow people to call that solution Critcial Mass.
The ride with the cops is 100% legitimate ... as long as it is not mislabeled as a critical mass.
If somebody was calling a ride "Midnight Ridazz" but not respecting the code of Midnight Ridazz. many of us would say something / do something. Not because we care about the law or have a financial stake in Midnight Ridazz, but because we want to protect the integrity of something that we cherish.
No law or action is required for the Last Friday ride to change its name.
It will just take a cultural effort. If we as a community rename that ride, and refuse to call it critical mass, it will be renamed.
I mean, if it really means that much to you.... Then go through the process of changing the name.... Like I said... If you care and have the energy then do it.
Roadblock responding to a comment by trickmilla
11.28.10 - 2:27 am
Everybody makes really clear and convincing arguments on both sides of this dilemma.
But I have to agree with Trickmilla on the point that this should not be called CRITICAL MASS. We can't just destory a tradition that has been put down and celebrated in all parts of the world, just because LAPD will slap us on the wrist for doing so. Critical Mass is not a spectacle or show for people to see, it's a demonstration of what has been accomplished by US (RIDERS) over the years, without the help of the city nor the LAPD. There was never a need for cops to escort the ride, LACM has been strong and steady for years.
If the LAPD is there to SERVE us, then they should go by the CRITICAL MASS rules, not theirs.
godmode responding to a comment by trickmilla
11.28.10 - 2:58 am
Is this before or after you get the hot rookies digits?
Anywho, these CM-inspired rides and all the hot button controversy they're causing right now are just grabbing at my knickers.
Alt-CM, Palu-CM, Fuck-CM, "WILL THA REAL SLIM CM PLEASE STAND UP. INSERT ALL FINGERS IN YER BUTT!!"
the reason I call these kids punk asses is irrelevant to the overall theme of this thread. Since you ask I will explain.
When I come on these rides, it is more then a ride. It is a gather of like minded folks that enjoy riding together, being together, talking about life, sharing stories and helping each other out when the need arises. This is a social situation that can and has been really rewarding to me, as it probably has for others. Those that I call punk asses, either don't get that, don't contribute to it, or antithetical to that theme. They don't know or won't participate in basic verbal salutations. They have little or no comradery for other riders. They are not the people I would want to go to a party where they are at. When you stop and help them with a flat, there is no appreciation for what is going on, nor do they use it a bonding experience that it usually leads to or just opening up to another human being and enjoying or experiencing them.
Its not that important to me how other riders ride. Everybody has a different way of looking at things. At this point in my life, I like to really take into consideration other cars and I always thought first about pedestrians and that hasn't changed. If I don't like something I see, I'm vocal about it. It doesn't mean I expect other to be like me or where I'm at.
I don't participate in this ride any more for various reason. I do feel I can express what I know from years of being part of it, and I like to share thoughts that may help people see things in a different light. I especially like to remind people of history that they may not be aware of. Like in 2000 at the DNC, the LAPD where riding along with the LA Critical Mass, corking, directing them into a dead end to get the riders off their bikes, arrest the critical mass participants, pile all their bikes on a flat bed truck and take them to jail. You can start watching this video at 2:20 to see what I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_g-k0CUeUk
The riders were arrested on suspicion of obstructing a public way, resisting arrest and reckless driving, but those charges were eventually dropped.
Just because somebody or something can do something doesn't make it right. What the LAPD is doing as you state "harass people into compliance" is just plain wrong. It might not be much, but I am at the very least dealing with it, by encouraging others on this board not to put up with that type of behavior of our public servants. It was Stephen Box who taught me by spelling out something that I inherently knew but didn't know how to express. That is, "what kind of city do we want to live in?" "What type of police force do we want to have in our city?" I for one want a PD that is respectful and serve us to protect us from vicious behavior. I don't want one that harasses my community into acting in way that they see fit. We are the ones they are serving. They are not here to force us into submission. I really would rather not have them at all, but since we do I want a police force that protects us from real harm.
Back to beating the drum of HOW MUCH IS THIS COSTING THE CITY? I can see why our police officers get paid 60-100k a year. They have to deal with some violent situations and people when they are at their worse. I don't see paying officers that much to harass us or baby sit us. This is a flagrant waste of city funds.
sexy responding to a comment by Roadblock
11.28.10 - 3:43 am
How about this for the name of the ride that meets at the same time and place LA critical mass once meant
"The Ride along with the LAPD as they kept car traffic away from you so you don't have to deal with cars and sometimes they go on a massive ticket riding attack if they feel like it, but most of the time won't if you give into their demands Ride."
sexy responding to a comment by godmode
11.28.10 - 3:47 am
"And that's kind of the thing, isn't it? It _is_ about the riders. Because of the openness of the original Critical Mass concept, everybody has their own idea of what the ride 'should' be, and they can easily project their own ideologies onto what is basically just a free-form bike ride. They can totally latch onto the idea that 'this is your ride' but fail to recognize that it's everybody else's ride too. If I've learned anything from eight years of subscribing to Critical Mass email lists (though maybe I haven't), it's that people _love_ to argue about what the point of Critical Mass is supposed to be, and some people have very, very narrow ideas on the matter." - A little pit bull dressed as mini mouse
"Most of the riders on LACM are my age, some even younger. They dont have a clue what Critical Mass is about."
Palucha,
I used to get angry at these kids darting ll over the place but it was Roadblock who said and I paraphrase, kill 'em with a smile. I now go up to the 'strangers' and say hello and explain the 'rules' and the 'purpose' of the ride.
Met some nice kids on the LAACM, some of whom don't even read here! It's interesting asking them QUESTIONS - what they know of these rides etc.
BTW you heard what our nice LBPD did in their city recently to several cyclists right???
Yes let's find solutions. For me LACM is not LACM in it's current format.
I understand this website was the result of a monthly bike ride of over a thousand and it had the result of diluting the monthly Midnight Ridazz ride while allowing for many others to flourish.
To finish, I don't think the roads are there as a playground, which is how a lot of those kids you talk about, use it and I know of many people who won't go on CM or other big rides because of idiots and we're not talking about motorists. Let's THINK, TALK, and EVOLVE..........
Limeyfly responding to a comment by palucha66
11.28.10 - 7:05 am
How about this. Why not make an Alternative ride for every ride?
The second Friday of the month should have an "Alternative ride", where everyone dresses up in the theme costume, but stops at all red lights, stop signs and stays in one lane. Why not take this "Alternative" thing and spread it to every ride.
Do this also for Crank Mob, have an "Alternative Crank Mob" but stop at all red lights, stop signs and stay in one lane. Every ride needs to have this. If bicycles are to get any type of credibility, you have to lead by example. Singling out one ride, just makes it seem like there is some kind of personal vendetta or maybe penis envy. If you really care about how riders are perceived, you would do this for all rides. Not just one.
YOU claim there is no comraderie? Don't you realize that tons of these kids actually know each other? Just cause you don't know them doesn't mean they don't know each other. Anyways it's funny to me that you, the purveyor of the COD are now complaining about being respectful of cars. I was the one who sat out the COD on SFVCM because I thought it was punk ass behaviour and aggrivating to car drivers.... What happened 10 years ago at a political rally -was that critical mass?- is not relevant to today since there is now a working relationship with the cops.... Fine, there is a lack of trust I can see why and I understand it.... But guess what you are forgetting... We have no choice the cops are going to be there. They are there escorting the ride in SF, Chicago, New York (not escorting just harassing tmk) and it costs each of those cities money too. Difference is that those bike scenes are older and more established. This city is just finding itself. Should we go through all the same process of evolution?
SF no longer does the COD and are escorted by the
cops. How do you feel about that? You and I used to argue about CODs... I hated them you loved them.
The final question:
SF and other cities have put in a lot of WORK fighting for their right to be a routeless escort. Are you going to ride and fight for your right to roll without a route like SF did?
even though I can't side with Palucha on his actions, it is always good to see a teenager stepping up to the plate and shouldering some responsibility. Palucha would be wise to try to understand the principled aspect of CM that others are upset about, but Im finding it hard to really be mad at the kid. He for one stood with the regular attendees.
Overall I gotta extend my respect to the young kid for accepting a role, when others his age could careless and are more concerned about getting laid (unless this is the deal palucha struck with the LAPD).
It's hard to believe the cops will continue and continue and continue and continue to parade around town with THFKALACM. I'm willing to bet more concessions will be made and if palucha keeps the defensive stance, he might find himself being used by LAPD rather than his current feelings of being respected.
No more concessions and like I said before LAPD joined the first ride: I just dont trust the LAPD.
In Borfo We Trust. And that may be all difference and the overall point.
md2 responding to a comment by palucha66
11.28.10 - 9:48 am
Like me, sexy would definitely be present more to fight, but under his present circumstances that isn't always so easy.
We all were kinda amused and befuddled by COD the first time it arose, but inside we knew this would not end well.
I don't blame palucha for trying to step up, I like him and I hope he continues to be a doer, but I really don't care for his asshole trollish posts. He knows I am trying to do something as well as encourage you all to do something about our situation.
I'm in support for Critical Mass in cities that don't have it. Los Angeles can keep Critical Mass, but it needs to try to evolve. Some cities do it much better than we do. I do not want the police channeling it where they want us to go. The way to do that is by following the 2 guidelines. Rules and Destination.
Let's do the same for all rides. yes, ALL RIDES.
Joe Borfo responding to a comment by Roadblock
11.28.10 - 10:22 am
The cops may or may not continue to harass LACM but now that Palucha is taking responsibility and gave them what they wanted, the trust is now in their court.... They are the ones who will look bad if they decide to break their promise and it won't be that they look bad to those who already distrust the cops they will look bad to the kids... If you get to know a lot of these cops like Krumer, Villegas, Red, and Helper you know these guys on a vibe check are decent guys. I tend to believe that they don't want to lose the trust of the kids. Motorcycle cops are another story I suppose, but like I said a bunch of times, we have no choice. Actually, the kids on LACM have no choice because most of the "leaders" (myself included) of the community abandoned the LACM ship and started alternate rides. It is now up to the youngsters to forge ahead. In my eyes this is a good thing. I like the results when the youth step up no matter the outcome because just the act of stepping up is what's important.
I'd like to see the escorted ride go past staples when a big concert or game is on....will the police veto that route? make it weave back and forth around dtla specifically targeting the new la live and adjacent areas...
question to palucha out of curiosity...do you and your other involvements have 100% say on the route? Can a non m.r. participant approach you with their own 15 mile route to submit to the police? if it's a ride for the people, do they have a say or is it a palucha derived route only?
In borfo we trust +1
barleye responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
11.28.10 - 11:11 am
And I'm with you Borfo, rides can still be fun obeying the lights. I'd love to see this become the norm.... Even the Hustle Ride has changed it's tone over the past 4 years.... Instead of rushing up to reds it's all about saving momentum, looking ahead and timing the lights..... Its not perfect but it's getting there.
Roadblock responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
11.28.10 - 11:11 am
I respect palucha's efforts.
And to reiterate, I have nothing against
LFWW ride being a police sanctioned bike parade.
MORE PEOPLE ON BIKES HAVING FUN IS GREAT
We just need to make it clear to everybody that this is not a Critical Mass.
In my very limited experience WPH has always been a model for how to keep a group ride together without harassing cars or causing undue traffic issues. On WPH I've seen that it is possible to have 30 people sprint through an intersection (green/yellow) where each and every rider makes a personal decision to either keep going or brake for the light.
In my experience %99 of the riders on WPH make good decisions and avoid causing cars to brake suddenly or avoid cyclists unnecessarily .
WPH is a good example of what can be achieved when you have a group of well-intentioned competent ridazz willing to forgo speed for efficiency.
I think the fastest and most efficient way to RIDAZZ is to organize smaller rides and promote our code of conduct so tha other RIDAZZ can see it's merit.
People seemed to have a lot of fun on the Alt-LACM last Friday. If we can grow this group through organic (word-of-mouth) tactics then many people will leave CM and ride with us instead.
LACM is approaching its own Crotocal Mass. I dont believe there's any point in trying to stick our finger in that dam.
Instead we should be promoting an alternative to LACM which protects the ideals of CM while avoiding all the bullshit that surrounds the LA Version of CM.
@Palucha
Give the LAPD a route if you want. But realize that the goal of CM is to get people out of their cars and onto a bicycle. When people get the idea that they need a police escort to go from Wilshire/Western to Mid City they will never become bicycle commuters... they will just become bicycle enthusiasts that need constant hand holding to follow 3 simple rules.
1. Stay on the right
2. Dont run Reds. (Just fucking don't!)
3. Don't be a dick ( Tag, Steal,Ride like an ass)
So the question is... do you want to promote bicycle commuting and our right to the road or do you just want a free pass to run reds at intersections blocked by bitch ass motorcycle cops?
If CM keeps running a pre-planned route with a police escort you'll just end up being a silly bike-parade with no real impact on traffic. In fact the police corking will cause even more traffic than LACM did. People will still call and complain that they are late to work because the ride went by. You're letting the police do your dirty work for you but we'll still get a rep for causing traffic. People in their cars will just think of it as another bothersome impediment to their commute.
You and borfo should just squash beef and work together already.
A large amount of various original type rides that are riding simultaneously from different start points on the last Friday of the month - Many of which will converge at predetermined locations - All of which will continue to encourage stopping at all reds and leaving the left lane open.
This is a totally different approach to demonstrating our rights to ride the streets in a more successful, fun, and positive way.
You really need to see this in your mind in order to grasp it's significance.
This can happen on other nights as well. But last Friday holds significance because of the current nature of LACM. This is our collective wish from many ridazz on this forum. We all need to collaborate to make this happen.
I think seeing the police escort a ride makes NEW riders feel safe and therefore might actually come out to try riding a bike on the street. And all it takes is that one night of riding on the street to plant the seed in someone's head that it's possible to ride from one place to another... think of it as a rolling CicLAvia (maybe that's the new name?) sure, it wont make EVERYONE feel safe riding alone, but then that will not happen for certain people regardless. What LACM will do is get the people who were scared of distance to overcome their fear. Eventually I believe, if the public sees that the police support the ride, that they some of the public will see it as legit. others of course won't but those are the same people that never will whether there are cops or not.... still the others you speak of that you predict wont consider it if there arent cops just might have their minds changed by the sight of the many many un-escorted rides that occur. boom. win win win.
Roadblock responding to a comment by stillline
11.28.10 - 1:56 pm
I think there's some truth to this. As much as I think the current, cop-escorted version of LACM is kind of lame, it does get some people out there who wouldn't be riding otherwise. Attendance rose once the cops started showing up, right?
It's probably a little patronizing to assume that the people whose first ride is a cop-escorted parade are going to have this model permanently ingrained in their idea of what a bike ride should be. There are a ton of rides happening these days, and very few of them have any police presence at all. Is someone who comes out for their first ride and has a great time on Critical Mass going to stick solely to Critical Mass?
If this LACM parade was the only ride in L.A., I'd be worried that the cops were effectively marginalizing cyclists further by escorting them through the streets. But it's not the only ride in L.A., so as long as it brings out people who wouldn't otherwise be on the streets, I think it will function as a stepping stone toward riding bikes as an everyday experience.
Still, I personally think that a parade escorted by a bunch of cops is pretty boring, so I'll stick to other rides, thanks.
I'm fairly certain that the cops won't be escorting for very a long time. Once it ends then people will keep assuming that it's cool to run the reds. Downward Spiral, man.
Joe Borfo responding to a comment by nathansnider
11.28.10 - 4:23 pm
My question got lost in the shuffle... is the police parade route owned by palucha now? When is it given to the police... can anyone make up a 15 mile route and submit it to the police or just palucha? The reason I ask is WHO THE FUCK PUT PALUCHA IN CHARGE OF LACM? There are so many reasons why this is not a critical mass now Including the choice of which direction to ride in. No offense palucha...just curious.
only a few months with the cops on CM and we've now got four different rides and arguments between each group. before we had haters, all directed at the police. now all the hate is directed at each other.
I don't want Krumer to go on the record regarding what happened at LACM on Friday. I believe their wink and nod is what's needed to allow LAPD to give us what we want without a parade permit being issued. LAPD is making an informal arrangement with a couple riders in LACM. This is not official, on the records sheeeet. This is McNulty/Carver Sheeeet, Hamsterdam in LA.
alexdc responding to a comment by Roadblock
11.28.10 - 7:39 pm
hahah for me it was the opposite.
I gave the cops the benefit of the doubt and they have steadily been blowing it ride after ride. I've kind of lost hope that they will ever "get it" whatever "it" is.
Meanwhile its the ridaz who are keeping critical mass alive by taking chances and creating MORE opportunities for people to ride.
4 rides means 4x as many opportunities for people to ride.
Despite whatever struggles are next its great to know that people care enough about LACM to make it happen according to their vision.
Too much talking/writing going on and not enough riding. Again, the problem is not with the people who come onto these forums. But the people that come onto these forums and bring something to the table (even the negative nancys on here) only comprise 10% of all the riders out there riding at one time or another. We argue amongst ourselves but the real problems are caused and lay with the other 90% that either A) doesn't know of MR.com or B) don't care about MR.com or even riding the smart way (so as to not get your dumb ass killed).
Those 90% (or whatever amount you want to substitute) are the people we have to reach, one way or another, so as to change the culture of riding in Los Angeles.
we went about 6 years staying contiguous when the cops weren't around.... why would it be any different if the cops left?
the fact is that cyclists around the world ignore lights and stop signs when convenient and safe simply because most of the traffic grids on the planet are designed primarily for motor vehicle traffic. if there were no motor vehicles there would be no stop signs and lights. cyclists are the halfway point between motor vehicles and pedestrians - not quite one or the other.... I don't see how taking the cops away is going to change anything. what will change cyclist behaviour is proper infrastructure that suits them such as in.... wait for it......... THE NETHERLANDS.
Roadblock responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
11.28.10 - 9:22 pm
"I think seeing the police escort a ride makes NEW riders feel safe and therefore might actually come out to try riding a bike on the street."
I agree, that's very likely true.
There's also those of us who haven't been on a critical mass for a long time because we don't like riding with the cops, and they make us feel completely unsafe. So. Now what? LAACM.
P.S. Borfo, there isn't much reason to apologize, in my book. There's no reason for palucha to get all bent out of shape just because there's now a growing support for an alternative to LACM. If he believes in what he's doing, then he should do it without getting whiny. That's his thing. And he should let others do their thing.
YOU claim there is no comraderie? Don't you realize that tons of these kids actually know each other? Just cause you don't know them doesn't mean they don't know each other I'm talking about human decency. I don't see it in many of these youth, thats what I'm talking about. Yes everybody knows somebody, not everybody knows me. I explained myself already.
Anyways it's funny to me that you, the purveyor of the COD are now complaining about being respectful of cars. I'm not complaining about how others are or aren't respectful of cars. So I don't repeat myself, please re-read the second paragraph of the last post I wrote.
COD can be fun and exhilarating if done properly with the right amount of people who know how to pull it off. I would be part of one again if the situation was right. Yes it can be annoying to people in cars. It can go down wrong, but I usually look at it as a car in the middle of the road attempting to make a left hand turn, but after the light went from yellow to red it is still in the middle of the road and all traffic has to wait. Instead of a car it is a bunch of cyclist. Sure, you can label it punk ass.
What happened 10 years ago at a political rally -was that critical mass?
What happen ten years ago was the LA critical mass ride, it just happened to be in the vicinity of a political rally, it was still LA critical mass. If it was a rally or not does not change what happened. The LAPD was part of the ride, corked for
the ride then lead it into trap and arrested people and confiscated the participants bikes. That was the LAPD overstepping their bounds and punishing riders for where the ride was at(sic'). If any traffic violations happened it should have been dealt with it as usual with a traffic citation not arresting the participants and confiscation of bicycles.
And the police where not gentle with the bikes, they piled them ten high on top of each bike on the back of a flat bed.
I bring this up as history to let everybody who chooses to ride with the LAPD know what they are capable of and what crimes they have committed against cyclist in the past. Yes it is criminal to falsely arrest somebody as punishment for participating in a lawful activity.
We have no choice the cops are going to be there We may not have a choice where the LAPD decides where they will patrol, but we do have choices in how we react and allow them to decide how we go about doing a ride. We are talking about an entity that is outside of our bicycling community, that is deciding they want to have a level of control of how we go about our rides. We wouldn't let anybody except for those who actually participate in our rides decide how they go down. This come about from mutual respect between all of us for someone who knows how the rides happen and that we all collectively trust that they will take the ride in way that will be beneficial to all its participants. We do this by showing up for their rides and participating in them. If we have issue with how they did something we end up bring those issue up on this forum. At Critical Mass it is usually somebody who decides to take the bull by the horn so to speak. Somebody who knows how Critical Mass is to go down. Sometimes it worked out great, sometimes not so great
Remember the LAPD writing tickets for lack of bicycle license. We had a choice to tell City Council how that didn't work and that it wasn't to anybodies benefit. What happen? that law is now no longer enforced. We have had power to direct what the police do and don't do in the past. We can still direct them in what they do and don't do now and in the future. They are our police force. They answer to the City Council the City Council answer to the people.
They are there escorting the ride in SF, Chicago, New York What goes on in other cities is up to those that live there. What goes on in LA is my business because it is my city along with the rest of us who live here.
SF no longer does the COD and are escorted by the cops. How do you feel about that? How in the world is SF critical mass going to be able to pull off a COD? It would make no sense, there are way too many people to make that work. Why do it anyway? With the thousands of people on SF-CM the intersection is effectively blocked.
Am I going to ride and fight to roll without a route like SF did? I don't go on the ride like I once did, so I'll let those that go on it work it out. If they choose to give the police a route and ride with the police that is up to those who attend. If I participated in the ride like I once did, I could give you an answer. As for now I as a resident citizen of the city of Los Angeles who is oppose to having the LAPD use so many recourses to escort LA Critical Mass. As somebody who has participated on the rides and knows what the rides are about, I know first hand that it is such a waste of money. There is serious crime that needs to be addressed. I hope the brass of LAPD realizes what a waste this is and allocate their officers to fight crime, not baby sit a bike ride.
I will push the city council to lessen the amount LAPD is budgeted so myself and
the people of our beautiful city can enjoy the things that it wants and not waste the city budget on things that we don't.
I want the pools open longer in the summer time.
I want the library open seven days a week again with longer hours.
I want traffic and road improvement projects to be implemented.
I want more services for our senior community.
I want my sidewalk repaired.
I want my trees trimmed.
I want more pollution controls implemented at the Harbor.
I want it to be easier for people to navigate city services and gather permits when they go to city hall.
I want more Dash buses.
I want our emergency services department to be able to get to and help whoever calls for their help as soon as possible.
I want utilities assistant for those who are having troubles paying their bills.
I want a bigger budget for the neighborhood councils.
I DON"T WANT THE LAPD ESCORTING RIDES!
sexy responding to a comment by Roadblock
11.28.10 - 10:16 pm
So, on my next ride to the market, do I have to submit my ride to the LAPD? Do I have to submit it when I'm alone? Or only when I'm riding with others? What's the wait time? I want my ride to be fun and enjoyable.
"Remember the LAPD writing tickets for lack of bicycle license. We had a choice to tell City Council how that didn't work and that it wasn't to anybodies benefit. What happen? that law is now no longer enforced. We have had power to direct what the police do and don't do in the past. We can still direct them in what they do and don't do now and in the future. They are our police force. They answer to the City Council the City Council answer to the people. "
you forgot what lead up to the downfall of the bike license program... it wasn't just the cyclists showing up to CC to protest the licensing program it was the LAPD showing up asking for it to be suspended as well. When we discovered that the LAPD was loathe to fill out the paperwork to license our bikes, I encouraged and organized licensing rides on here every tuesday and thrursday afternoons basically harassing the LAPD into hating the program with us. even with the LAPD hating on the licensing program it took a full year and a half to get that license law suspended. it took the voice of the LAPD and the cyclists to get that damn law suspended (it's still on the books)
with LACM the cops are not going away why? because the city is in a budget crisis the LAPD is getting crunched and because the time is billable to the city and blame-able on the cycling community. my bet is that most if not all of the officers who go on LACM are working overtime or on furlough or days off. they are making work for themselves in a time when crime is down (at least according to the chief). the LAFD is doing the same thing. the other day I saw a homeless woman on the curb being attended to by a paramedic, an engine and a hook and ladder why? because the LAFD knows that a homeless woman cant pay shit and the money will come from the city coffers. same with cicLAvia, the city insisted that a huge uneccesary amount of cops and city workers were assigned to ciclavia because they need the work and they know the cyclists are so desperate and energetic that we would jump through all the hoops and get all the sponmsors needed to pay for it. if we didnt the city wouldnt care. you never here the LAtimes or LAweekly crying about other street closure events because it's far easier to blame it on:
You tell me. That seems to be the unspoken sentiment around here.
Last month it was "fucking pigs gave me a ticket for running a red light!"
This month it's "fucking pigs rode next to me all night, corking and letting me buy beer at food for less and they even ran their sirens in the tunnel!"
I feel like some posters here are reacting as if their parents are coming to Coachella with them.
alexdc responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
11.29.10 - 6:41 am
actually Roadblock, I believe I saw stop signs and even stop lights for bicyclist in the Netherlands. Stop signs for sure, two way lanes for bikes for sure, the lights I can't remember.
Limeyfly responding to a comment by Roadblock
11.29.10 - 8:02 am
The ride that was led by Paducha and routed by the police is not critical mass. Please stop calling it CM. Call it douche fixie kid ride with police escort but LACM it is not.
Padaucha Critical mass has no leader and no route. You broke rules 1 and 2.
The only rule is to ride. I find it interesting that those who are complaining the most about the so-called rules of Critical Mass, never ride it.
The only people who own Critical Mass are the people who ride it. If you want in, get on your bike and ride it. If not, step aside and let the new generation rule.;
Of course there are rules. Why do you think this whole thread is here. Because some douchebag kid decided to hijack something that no one owns. Even the people that ride it do not own it. That is the point.
let the new generation rule = no respect punks being douches because they have popo babysitting them. Nice.
Palucha has successfully turned critical mass into a diaper changing party.
Foldie responding to a comment by hate_the_hater_not_the_ride_
11.29.10 - 9:35 am
looks like you're not even reading the comments. but maybe its the unspoken stuff thats got you all excited about the CVC and shit
those who participated in LACM this month wrote good comments. those who had issues with palucha giving a route for the FIRST time in LACM history had the critical posts (though the BH courthouse ride seems to dabble in that arena).
regarding reds, the issue is not that the cops will not let them cork or run reds, but that there was so much confusion when an officer corks and then another officer tickets a rider claiming he/she did not see the first officer corking.
Other than that, another red light complaint is that even though we know (truly there is no argument here) were breaking the CVC, the reality in regard to "safety", is that when a mass is riding, corking is safe and running reds are safe. It is very different than running reds one rider at a time. (but lets not bother with this)
What bugs alot of riders, in my opinion, is that the LAPD sees more interest in citing / harassing into compliance than anything else. They claim, dont run reds unless we cork. When 20 riders are around you, its kind of hard to stop a group as you're looking whether a cop is corking, then knowing the answer having to stop and get others who are chatting, waving, etc to the same.
The LAPD knows that the larger group is just riding and just trying to engage the city differently. You can harp on the CVC shit all you want. You can also follow it to the T for the rest of your life and no one will give two shits. You wont win any awards and the gods wont allow you into paradise for it. You'll just sound like a dork for thinking it's some precious virtue to follow. Borfo gave reds lights a context, you just make them seem like they're one of the ten commandments.
I think riders were open minded about the LAPD joining in order to create a harmonious relationship. The LAPD already knew the content of rides. That they chose to enforce dumb laws instead taking a more community level approach showed they were less interested in understanding/ supporting, than controlling.
If the LAPD were anything like parents, then they would be too busy fighting with each other than to notice their kids are doing anything wrong.
md2 responding to a comment by alexdc
11.29.10 - 9:38 am
Critical Mass Rule Number 1: You ride it, you own it.
Critical Mass Rule Number 2: Refer to rule number 1.
Critical Mass isn't an MR ride, it never was. It is a ride for the people who ride it, run by the people who ride it. If you aren't riding it, than you can do anything about it. Complaining here on the forum is futile. It will be run by those who participate.
Calling the new generation "no respect punks": is a badge of honor.
Every new generation was called "no respect punks" by the older generation.
Congratulations Critical Mass riders, you are now comparable to Marlon Brando (the young rebellious version), James Dean, Elvis, The Beatles, and Johnny Rotten. Enjoy your youth...it is fleeting, but so exciting! Don't listen to the old cranky people. Never trust anyone over 30.
That was my point... The traffic grid in the Netherlands was designed to accomodate cyclists. When multiple modes mix on the same roads there are lanes and
lights that accomodate all the modes. When it's cyclists only there are no lights or stop signs even at bicycle intersections because bicycle traffic sorts itself out safely.
Roadblock responding to a comment by Limeyfly
11.29.10 - 10:08 am
Don't lump us with the 12 y-o kiddies on neon fixie bikes. They have nothing to do with SOME of us. I'm finding it interesting that you seem to have no clue where we are coming from, while your point of view is obvious. Step back and try, at least. Understand where we're coming from and what we're trying to say before you throw out irrelevant "facts", that are totally bullshit and wrong.
Addressing our counsel members? Working with the cops? AND Fun and friendly? For some of us that is NOT what we're talking about, not at all.
I feel like [a] poster on here is being narrow minded and stubborn.
I've cycled there as you have. THe whole attitude there is different to here. Goes way beyond the cycle discussion. Starts with the people.
I got chatised for crossing a line in a bike lane by a fellow Dutch cyclist. I didn't understand what he said but I thought it was interesting!!! Ha! They love rules there to follow.
Anyway I was trying to argue or anything, just trying to remember when I cycled a little north of Amsterdam all the way to the beach, the pathway was regulated and only used by cyclists that's all, kind of like the path in North HOllywood in some ways....
Loved the experience!!!
Limeyfly responding to a comment by Roadblock
11.29.10 - 11:00 am
You are a classic shit talker that talks but doesn't do.
I don't agree with what Palucha did, and it raises some huge questions about the future of Critical Mass.
But he is trying to DO SOMETHING right or wrong he is trying.
It is not up to any one person to sort out what the future of Critical Mass holds.
That will be up to the people who actually choose to attend future Critical Masses.
Lets cut out the childish name calling.
Lest we become the douche bag that called douchy.
What a bunch of us HAVE been saying, is that LACM is NOT MR. That is the point that some of us have been trying to emphasize. It's NOT supposed to be a FUN, FRIENDLY Family ride. It's a fucking protest, pure and simple... well it's supposed to be. Not what it is now.
The LAPD rides it, therefore they OWN it? That is what you are saying, and THAT is absolutely TRUE . AND THAT, buddy with a new anonymous nick, is WHY we're bitching about the CURRENT AFFAIRS of LACM. The people, under 30, that have NO FUCKING CLUE what they are doing, are letting the LAPD take over the ride. That fucking sucks. And before they throw the "you never ride it" bullshit, should ALSO know we never ride it BECAUSE of the LAPD bullshit on TOP of the cute little fixie kids that don't fucking know how to ride.
Anyway, yeah.
FUCK THE POLICE.
In other words, you are SUPPORTING our ARGUMENT.
Anyone under 30 is STUPID, you'll realize that once you're over 30.
the reverend dak responding to a comment by hate_the_hater_not_the_ride_
11.29.10 - 11:09 am
You are the classic shit talker critic. You have all the solutions and answers and have no room for name calling or criticism. Why try to shut down the debate because my use of douchebag is not appropriate.
Just doing something is not the answer. Doing something wrong that usurps the entire idea of LACM is wrong and should be criticized.
You can go after me for my not-doing something or name calling all you want but at the end of the day I reserve my right to have an opinion on the matter whether or not I am directly involved or not.
Do you have to ride CM to care about it and protect it? Do I have to be Box or Thompson level of bikey stuff to make a difference?
Stop wasting your energy on us trolls and point it where it makes a difference.
Foldie responding to a comment by trickmilla
11.29.10 - 11:18 am
"Anyone under 30 is STUPID, you'll realize that once you're over 30."
Generalizing is so unlike you. Usually you're the voice of reason but in this case you sound like a mad lunatic. What do your under-30 buddies think of that statement you closed your argument with?
R@WKIT responding to a comment by the reverend dak
11.29.10 - 11:28 am
thank you dak for always saying things more eloquently than me. i have a tendency to get so heated that i curse most of the time. but i guess that's normal when talking to brick walls.
also, why do people bring up self serving individuals with political aspirations and commend them. for what? for using cycling as a platform to get what they want? you do realize these individuals might care for cyclists, but in the end they only care about themselves and are using bikes to get a foothold. why bend over to a broken system? why work with a system that is built to deflect change? oh yeah.... money, power, respect.
i haven't been on lacm for over a year and i'm glad. i don't care about making bikes mainstream or getting people out of cars. i care about larger issues. just let me ride my bike in peace. i follow the rules of the road not because i believe in laws and respect authority, but because cars are heavy as hell and i don't wanna die. let darwinism do it's thing. i can't wait to go to next month's lacm alternative.... or hopefully, to sfcm.
They usually laugh, because they know i'm joking. Sorry if you're offended, it was just an off the cuff response to the "over 30" comment I was replying to. My bad.
Damn I'm a little over 30, do I have join the Old People's Critical Mass?
I don't feel old yet or cranky.
But the more I read these forums, the more cranky and old I get....
Haw many critical masses have you participated in the last year?
Any?
Yes CM is about the people that go.
The participants are LACM.
The way you really change it, is by doing it.
I don't have all the solutions, and I'm not above a little name calling, teasing, or sniping. But I have also actively participated in this scene over the last 4 years and i tend to support and respect the "real" people here as much as possible.
There is a serious discussion going on and sitting on the sidelines calling people names is just counter-productive.
It changes the discussion to "why are you attacking so & so" from discussing the real subject at hand.
At best it is a distraction.
Have you met Palucha personally?
He is a fine person especially so considering his young age.
Which is one of the reasons why you stand out as one of the few people baselessly attacking his character. Most people here who have met him respect him, even those us who disagree with his actions.
We debate the ideas being discussed instead of throwing turds any any direction like a monkey.
Encouraging people here to be more sincere and thoughtful and directing their energies toward doing things. Is a great use of time.
You are not beyond hope.
Get off the sidelines and make something.
anything. Do a fucking ride for trolls.
Help out with the toy ride. There is endless opportunities to get involved.
Do something, anything other than making fun of people and cutting people down.
Or break out and go ride on a critical mass.
Its work, it opens you up to criticism, to real criticism about real things that you have put thought, love and energy into. But its worth it. Ask Palucha.
What I do or don't do for the bike scene is really not germane to the issue. I do what I do and don't need to list my CV or appear to be correct all the time to care about cycling in LA.
I've met palucha and generally like him, but that does not preclude me for calling him a douche when he is one.
My opinion is one of many this forum provides. Whether the dialogue gets muddled a little is not really the issue.
So please stop your fucking rant on what I appear not to do or what rides I participate in because I don't show up in the same circles you do. I don't give a shit what you or anyone thinks about my opinion. It is valid as is yours.
Foldie responding to a comment by trickmilla
11.29.10 - 2:28 pm
Jerry Rubin said "never trust anyone over 30" at the 1968 Democratic National Convention. He died in 1994, hit by a car while jaywalking on Wilshire Blvd.
He would be 72 today had he lived.
Did the youth of the 1960's, who fought the establishment and the police, achieve anything? Eventually it brought an end of to the Vietnam war.
Maybe the youth of today, who are cooperating with the police, can achieve things too.
The end of the car culture. I hope they do it.
Oh yeah, Jerry Rubin also used to say "DO IT!".
History class Santa Monica College.
sgrant responding to a comment by hate_the_hater_not_the_ride_
11.29.10 - 3:16 pm
what trick said. your own admitted self described trolling is a huge part of what poisons the atmosphere on this site.... more than the shitty archaic code, the biggest complaint I hear time and again is the trolling in these forums of which you are one of the chief purveyors. why do you insist on being that poison?
At what point did I distract from the conversation or poison the keg so to speak. I merely added my opinion that Palucha broke rules 1 and 2 and that was a bad thing.
Just because my opinion does not align with someone else does not make me wrong.
Foldie responding to a comment by Roadblock
11.29.10 - 4:28 pm
c'mon dude. you yourself admit that you troll. I don't think there is a soul on this board that doesnt think that trolling is poison. there are many times where I've read your comments and felt that your snarks and trolling are over the top. sure, you arent the only one but you are a prominent one. in person you seem so different. but on here your voice is shrill and you are poisoning this community with your seemingly endless harping on people. calling people names etc. it's poison. it sets the mood for others and you probably can't see the damage because you are in it.... but negativity is poison. we all have our moments for sure.... but damn dude.... I guess it's idealistic for me to hope that this website we've all put our heart and soul and history in will somehow prevail as the only forum on the planet sans trolling. but I know you. I see a lot of people in person. that has to make it different.
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