Self Defense or Assault?
Thread started by
Logan... at 07.14.09 - 4:54 am
Tonight I was involved in an incident on Sunset and Alvarado.
A car passed by me and a man in the back passenger sear hit me with his arm and elbow.
I didn't fall.
I was with 10 other riders on the six pack monday ride.
I was just chilling.
I told people I had been hit and at the light the car was stopped.
Clare and I approached the vehicle.
Three passengers in the rear of a Late model White Impala exited.
A verbal argument progressed into an all out fight on the street.
I didn't want to fight.
Clare took the brunt of blows.
He didn't back down and threw down with them and his kryptonite.
I jumped in when one of three started to steal his bike and then my bike.
In the tug of war my rim was tacoed...
I didn't want to pull my knife.
When I pulled out my kryptonite chain... I put it back on...
And that's the question.
When explained to me by the cops who came after.
In a "fist to cuff" fight it is an "assault" to pull a deadly weapon.
Even if your attacker is using "fist to cuff".
You must then use "fist to cuff."
That's the problem... in a fight you get hurt... even if you hurt the other guy more.
That guy can then charge YOU with assault.
So if you beat his ass and detain him until the cops arrive... you can get charged.
If he incurs medical bills.
You can be charged.
So my discussion is this...
Should I have diffused the situation with Pepper Spray or a stun gun?
I definitely do not want to risk being charged with an assault with a deadly weapon...
That being my kryptonite or my knife.
And I don't want to get into a fight.
I don't want to hurt anyone.
But what's the best solution to neutralize a situation until the cops arrive while protecting myself and not using deadly force?
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I don't know, I wouldn't trust the cops' explanation - they're not lawyers. I'd check it out with a lawyer, or do the research yourself, as I believe that body parts can be considered deadly weapons.
It may have been better to take the plate and call the cops instead of engaging? But I can't say for sure, because I was not there. I think that's what I would have done.
HappyLand07.14.09 - 6:23 am
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Just like cops you have to say the magic words YOU FEARED FOR YOUR LIFE and if you were a cop you could shoot him 15 times reload and shoot again
crossbones07.14.09 - 6:27 am
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"Should I have diffused the situation with Pepper Spray or a stun gun? "
of course.
kurtz07.14.09 - 7:27 am
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Wow, sorry you guys had to go through that. I would say, honestly, while you may feel like defending yourself, getting away from a situation like that with a car full of hostile thugs would be the best way to diffuse the situation. Standing up for yourself I understand, but the potential consequences and aftermath - just not worth it. Glad you're all OK, sorry about your wheel.
kryxtanicole07.14.09 - 7:46 am
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Note. Correction the spelling of my name is Clair. And also to add fighting is not in my nature kindness to man is my aim. I guess sometimes you've got to put aside the male ego and walk away. I want to appologize for my stupidity and putting other riders at risk. Any man can fight but not to many back down.
MRSeA07.14.09 - 7:48 am
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TL:DR - Stay out of fights, carry pepper spray.
"Should I have diffused the situation with Pepper Spray or a stun gun? "
Pepper spray is legal to carry without a permit, a stun gun is not, so you probably want to avoid that.
In terms of U-lock vs. fisticuffs, the cops weren't there, so if you thought you saw someone going for a weapon, that could entitle you to respond with whatever means you thought appropriate, although it would likely involve a lot of hassle and drama and expense and paperwork that you don't want to deal with if you can avoid it.
Your best bets are:
a - De-escalate the situation. As we've seen over the last few days, there are plenty of violent people out there, some of whom might not mind riding out the recession in "government housing", letting the govt. provide them with food and clothing and shelter for a while. Unless you're sufficiently skilled in MMA / Krav Maga to disarm and incapacitate people routinely and effectively (and you're probably not), don't get into confrontations you can avoid, and don't escalate them into physical conflict. Even if you're 100% in the right, it's still going to screw up a few weeks / months of your life if you end up hurting somebody and the police get involved. In this case, get the license plate and call the police, and then file an incident report with the DMV. (THat plays a lot better than 10 U-lock wielding cyclists taking on 3-4 unarmed motorists.)
b - Buy Pepper Spray / Bear Spray / Sabre tear gas & pepper spray combo (Big 5 Sports- $12.95) - This stuff does no lasting injury, hurts like hell, makes it hard for people to see, and buys you some time to move along, as most people respond to their first instinct, which is to get away from the person with the pepper spray.
JB responding to a
comment by kurtz
07.14.09 - 8:01 am
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+10!
It's okay, we all make mistakes.
Thanks for the courage to write that, it's admirable.
HappyLand responding to a
comment by MRSeA
07.14.09 - 8:54 am
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dude, what is up with all this violence lately?
it seems like its been getting gradually worse in the past year.
KiMS107.14.09 - 10:04 am
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Clair- hope you are OK.
Six-Pack Monday heads- ride safe and hope everything turns out OK.
sciencefriction07.14.09 - 10:05 am
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man sorry to hear all this happen
hope all is well
mes0suave07.14.09 - 10:18 am
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i once met a 60-year old bike commuter who has carried pepper spray on her bike every day since mandeville. it's a good idea for any rider, not just in case of psychotic motorists but also stray dogs or whatever else. i keep one on my tool pack on the front of my frame.
in this state, bringing a knife to a fistfight is definitely a bad idea. plus, if someone tries to hurt or kill you, you'll have much better luck blinding them and running away than hitting them with a u-lock and hoping he doesnt have a weapon too.
on the other hand, if you're the LAPD, you can shoot someone 15 times for wielding a banana and get away with it.
btw, everybody, listen to JB.
tortuga_veloce responding to a
comment by JB
07.14.09 - 10:30 am
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Too many people going out of work, too many people who are still without work, too much beer, it being "that time of the month", testosterone, estrogen,. etc
It all boils down to finger-pointing, saber-rattling, dick-waving, goose-stepping, then escalates to all mindless bitch-slapping fests that we're seeing on a daily basis.
What we need to do is fly over the affected areas with powderized Prozac!!!
bentstrider responding to a
comment by KiMS1
07.14.09 - 10:31 am
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DAMM! WHERE WAS THE REST OF THE CREW?
YES, YES, YES, CARRY PEPPER SPRAY!
@CLAIR - GET DOWN HOMIE, THREE TO ONE = BADASS RIDA, HOPE YOU GAVE THEM SOME GOOD SHOTS TO REMEMBER YOU BY.
REMEMBER TO TELL THE POLICE THAT YOUR WERE BEING ATTACKED AND WERE SCARED FOR YOUR LIFE.
BUT GLAD YOU BOTH ARE OK. HOPE TO SEE YOU BOTH TONIGHT IF POSSIBLE
X-Large responding to a
comment by bentstrider
07.14.09 - 10:56 am
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La Duderina, is off having grass fed steaks (or whatever passes for vegetarian food) in Argentina when she should be helping us here with real legal advice.
trickmilla responding to a
comment by X-Large
07.14.09 - 11:11 am
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I call it FALLING DOWN, like the movie. The movie staring Michael Douglas, an over worked white-collar worker, who goes ballistic on the hottest day of the year. It starts in a typical LA situation, STUCK IN TRAFFIC.
Resorting to violence, or the resistance there-of, is what separates us from our primal nature. No one likes that we're pretty fucking happy riding our bikes across the city, for little to nothing in costs.
Recipe for Agro Behavior in LA: (Build, no ice.)
1 part the sight of hipsters on bikes
1 part hot weather
2 parts low to no income
Fill with low intelligence or lack of reasoning
Throw in face.
the reverend dak07.14.09 - 11:29 am
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I have been known to preferentially end fights with big hugs. Literally. Just squeeze em and they really can't do anything. Anyone remember at choppercabras? :)
profoscurity07.14.09 - 11:45 am
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Violence has been a part of riding a bicycle in LA for a long time. It is just getting more prevalent because of exponential increase in the number of riders and group rides that are sweeping the city.
Remember the 328 ride with the Medical Transport guy and his folding baton?
In my opinion:
You should always defend yourself, never turn the other cheek, when attacked.
Though you should never attack if the other party just mouths off or flips the finger.
In this case, you were hit by a passing car. (Apparently by a passenger in a passing car) The law is, you have the right to demand insurance and drivers license information from the driver. If they refuse, you call the cops. If they get out of the car and attack you...you defend yourself.
That's my opinion and should not be construed as legal advice or advice of any kind.
skd07.14.09 - 11:49 am
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Kill or be Killed
Nowdays no mercy can be shown.
once your in a street fight you better be willing to fight to the death,
otherwise you could be dead.........
gang members are punks who will rat pack you and kick and stab you
when your down.
you should of cracked the first one who got out of the car with a u lock and busted open his head, then slash there tires to disable the vehical
Teach those mutherfuckers not to fuck with cyclist......
Then beat it out of there, avoid all contact with cops.........
Dedicated81807.14.09 - 11:50 am
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Dedicated 818 - Worst advice ever.
That's a recipe for going to jail, and ruining whatever reputation the evening cyclists of L.A. have left with law enforcement.
JB responding to a
comment by Dedicated818
07.14.09 - 12:15 pm
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My best friend is in the army in Afghanistan right now and she says it's safer over there. I believe it.
kryxtanicole responding to a
comment by JB
07.14.09 - 12:17 pm
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Well, I could see that being an effective for when you happen to be the only cyclist in the town you live in.
Aside from that, LA and the surrounding area are full of places you could pretty much blend into or safehouse yourself in until the threat has cleared the immediate area.
bentstrider responding to a
comment by JB
07.14.09 - 12:19 pm
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Law Enforcement is not going to be there for you when your suffering a beat down.
Best to be the agressor if your forced into a confrontation
Rep ?
who cares when your dead....
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by JB
07.14.09 - 12:30 pm
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drivers are being more n more asshole-ish, today some dude almost nailed me on a sidewalk by a driveway only looking left, i saw it coming so i was already slowing and getting ready to go around him from behind when he finally turned right when i made eye contact i mouthed look both ways and pointed to my eyes then the dumb ass opens his door to your at me "FUCK YOU its a SIDEwalk" I was like "oh so u can hit people on a sidewalk?" dude keeps cusing at me as i ride away with "whatever asshole". too close to office to be in a fight over a dumb driver, not worth the time or assault charges
madmelo07.14.09 - 2:33 pm
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next time if and when there is a confrontation that requires Assault, just remember its only Assault if u dont bounce before the cops get there.
madmelo07.14.09 - 2:35 pm
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or if they get a pic, or you are a felon who leaves dna....
So remember, PEPPER SPRAY the fuck out of em before they can do anything, and make sure you dont leave anything behind but the crumpled frames of your attackers.
ONEpedalDEATHkick 818 responding to a
comment by madmelo
07.14.09 - 2:51 pm
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WTF!!
This shit is getting nuts. This can easily happen to any one of us. We have to remember to keep our cool out there people. As leaders we need to de-escalate situations not encourage them.. Hope everything works out
Debut21307.14.09 - 3:11 pm
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i was there... it was crazy, I had to use my belt to fend off the gangsters from me and the other riders..... I'm glad everybody I met last night is okay though.....
themidnightsocial! responding to a
comment by Debut213
07.14.09 - 3:16 pm
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Wow. This is great response.
Thanks everyone for their 2cents.
I gonna get a pepper spray holster.
Thanks also to Matt for lending me a rear wheel.
Also to Bike Oven for hooking me up with replacement spokes, wheel lace advice and a truing stand.
My bike is back.
Logan...07.15.09 - 1:59 am
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This is some truly dinggling shiiza. Keep kool and be at peace. My eyeball is bumping and of all I'd wish no harm to any one. But what should be done? Live in fear I Choose not to. Run away, it's hard to I like the hugging idea but I'm no giant. Life is too precious to spill blood and riding a bike is too enjoyable to stop. We the riders must be bigger in ways these punie unthoughtful motorist can't be. Not by anger or hate rage nor disrespect. But by something bigger than humanity. I'm going to rest my eyeball. Be safe and ride like the wind blows.
MRSeA07.15.09 - 4:00 am
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I think that would depend on if you're a female American soldier in a camp surrounded by 5,000 well equipped infantryman and armor or a Afghan woman looking for shelter for her family, after the Taliban or Americans killed off all of your relatives.
On topic, if you're going to start a fight don't be a pussy and be the first to pull a weapon. A U-Lock is a weapon.
franz responding to a
comment by kryxtanicole
07.15.09 - 6:12 am
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First things first before you lable someone a pussy get your facts right. If you'd to be in fear for your life and your attackers are three to one and you have no karate skills like chuck Norris would you chance it or defend yourself with something and before anything went down they took the first shot and of all it was a blind side shot so don't come off calling people pussy for defending their life. When someone is chucking full beer cans at you and then you hear them say let's getem. Put youself in my shoes size 10. Peace
MRSeA responding to a
comment by franz
07.15.09 - 12:21 pm
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I apologize I wasn't calling you a pussy. I was criticizing dedicated818"s kill first ask questions later post. That sounds like a good way to become someones bitch for the greater part of your life.
I have no idea what happened in this instance.
franz responding to a
comment by MRSeA
07.15.09 - 3:29 pm
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I'm not so giantish. 145lbs standing at 5'6.
Hugging method works best on belligerent drunks of all shapes and sizes.
profoscurity responding to a
comment by MRSeA
07.15.09 - 4:08 pm
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I commute everyday.I get yelled at ,honked at and sometimes they swerve at me when they feel special..I deal with it..But honestly if I was struck by someone with a fist or something thats where I draw the line.I would have to defend myself and really if I had to crack someone's face open with my u lock I would not feel bad about it and I would make sure not to get caught..Do unto others is how I roll..Cops don't care about you so don't call em handle your shit and get out quick..I know this is not the "lets play nice" attitude most of you have but this city is the thunder dome not a utopian society.It never will be no matter how nice and understanding you are..
FD07.15.09 - 6:28 pm
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@franz
no one said start a fight
it was if your forced into a fight.
this is a basic martial arts idea.
no one is saying to pick fights and assualt people.
but being law enforcement it must be hard not to twist things around.
after all isn't that what cops do ?
pull your gun shoot and ask questions later ?
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by franz
07.15.09 - 6:31 pm
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sorry but that turn the other cheek shit is hard to pull off when you're being attacked. what could these ridas do? they couldn't just walk away when these guys got out of their car to attack with intent. that u lock can be your only fucking friend in such a case.
i'm a peaceful guy but that peace and lovey dovey shit sounds stupid when some gangster is beating you to death on the street. our bike 'scene' is packed full of young peeps and hipsters wearing rose colored glasses who are missing the fact that this is fucking LA- a hard core, knitty gritty, true school city with some of the most dangerous motherfuckers walking the planet right now. i can't get my mind around how fresh young kids from middle class america come to LA thinking 'it's all good in the hood'.
you can turn the other cheek, i've got plenty of white paint to hook up a bike when we ghost ride for you. i will gladly take my chances with police charges, at least i'll be alive and in one piece to defend myself in court.
eric07.15.09 - 9:35 pm
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Bicycles=US Army Z-troopers
Multitude of aggressive motorists and such=Zeds
Lock and load those SIR's and sharpen those Lobo's people!!!
bentstrider07.15.09 - 9:43 pm
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forgive my aggro-ness earlier. i had not yet done my evening cruise.
eric07.15.09 - 11:38 pm
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FD writes: "I commute everyday.I get yelled at ,honked at and sometimes they swerve at me when they feel special..I deal with it..But honestly if I was struck by someone with a fist or something thats where I draw the line.I would have to defend myself and really if I had to crack someone's face open with my u lock I would not feel bad about it and I would make sure not to get caught..Do unto others is how I roll..Cops don't care about you so don't call em handle your shit and get out quick..I know this is not the "lets play nice" attitude most of you have but this city is the thunder dome not a utopian society.It never will be no matter how nice and understanding you are.."
i do believe the second part of that saying is "...as you would have them do unto you." so you basically just said that you want someone to crack your face with a u-lock. nice one.
onethirtynine responding to a
comment by FD
07.16.09 - 12:23 am
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FD said "...but this city is the thunder dome not a utopian society.It never will be no matter how nice and understanding you are.."
that's what i was getting at earlier but with less tact.
eric07.16.09 - 1:16 am
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I don't want to argue this point, I wasn't there, and to be honest I don't really care. All I have to say is it sounds like Claire or Clare didn't get the backup they should have, and were expecting in a 10 vs 4 situation.
franz responding to a
comment by eric
07.16.09 - 5:09 am
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Dang homes iz got sum what agree. Your thoughts are out there with the white paint and all but I do agree defend yourself to the fullest if you can find a way out of a situation I'd say take it don't allow your bike to be used against you. And ps to all who ride together if a biker is being attacked please don't stand back enjoying a free show if that's the case I'll start a fight club L.A.'s fleshes. J/k bit realy ride together survive together
MRSeA responding to a
comment by eric
07.16.09 - 8:33 am
reply
Ever since getting my face pounded in by the passenger of a truck, I have carried pepper spray in a holster on my bike.
I got it here, as well as the FOX pepper spray, law enforcement grade, non flammable (so you can spray a smoker!) with UV ink.
http://www.defensedevices.com/bike-mount-bicyle-pepper-spray.html
For less than $20, I have the peace of mind that I can protect myself from at least 1 person, and severely discourage a small group from about 8 feet away.
Pepper spray is a very strong deterrent, just the sound of the spray will cause a reaction.
Upon being sprayed, a person isn't gonna be going anywhere for about 15 min, which is enough time to call the cops, keep an eye on the person, get their description, a description of their car, and witnesses info.
By the time the full effect wears off, if they still have a fight inside them, spray again, and wait for the cops some more.
sparkypinball07.16.09 - 1:57 pm
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if it only lasts 15 minutes you'd have to spray them like 8 times before the cops show up?
tortuga_veloce responding to a
comment by sparkypinball
07.16.09 - 2:00 pm
reply
Well, if you spray them and get enough info in the process, this could be used later when there's a patient consistently going to the hospital for chemical burn treatment.
bentstrider responding to a
comment by tortuga_veloce
07.16.09 - 2:07 pm
reply
Sometimes you just gotta do what ya gotta do. But here is the page that will set us all free:
https://store.udap.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=BS
Roadblock07.16.09 - 2:09 pm
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You are krayzeee :) that's koo though i'm down to ride with the crazyist of them who knows how to have fun.
MRSeA responding to a
comment by eric
07.16.09 - 2:16 pm
reply
I ran into Clair and Logan just after this incident on sunset blvd. They were just finishing up with the cops when I arived.
This is the same spot where Brassknuckle and friends were attacked. Susnet just before silverlake blvd.
Lots of rowdy echo park gangsters roll that part of sunset. I got hit once by a guy who leaned out the window to pick up a large garbage can and throw it at me. This type of incident is common on Sunset. Its like mailbox baseball. Kids play it in every town.
From what I heard the fight started when Logan and Clair confronted the car at a stoplight after being attacked by the car's passengers.
This may sound a little harsh but they could have avoided the whole thing by just not confronting the car at the light. Its obvious that anyone who is down to lean out their window and attack you is also gonna be down for a fight.
If someone fucks with you and its obvious they did it on purpose you should just slow down and let them get ahead. Its in your best interest not to escalate an already violent situation.
Clair and Logan held their own and kept their bikes but they had to fight hard for them, Logans wheel was destroyed and Clair had a long full torso abrasion from being hit with a barricade that the passengers threw at him in the fight.
In my opinion all of this was avoidable.
Its hard to lkeep it cool when your adrenaline is pumping and the guy who fucked with you is 10 feet away..... but in the end it's the best way to insure you get home safe.
stillline responding to a
comment by MRSeA
07.16.09 - 4:36 pm
reply
yes..if i was to hit another human being i would expect to be hit with a ulock in the face...but i dont hit people so......
FD responding to a
comment by onethirtynine
07.16.09 - 5:48 pm
reply
i have lived in the same apt in ep for over 6 years and i have never seen or heard of gangsters messing with riders in this area. i ride in and out of ep at all hours of the day and night and have rarely ever even had people yell anything, and when they did it would be some random douchebag, not a gangster.
this happened where, at sunset alvarado...? i can see that intersection from my window, never known of any probs til now.
stillline is right about the slowing down bit to let them roll outta sight tho. rolling up to the car to confront is asking for trouble, yet i am guilty of this and am lucky to be alive.
eric responding to a
comment by stillline
07.16.09 - 9:28 pm
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