MTB's HARDTAIL FULL SUSPENSION
Thread started by
Jeff Yess at 09.15.09 - 6:39 pm
HARDTAIL OR FULL SUSPENSION?
LIKES?
DISLIKES?
BRANDS?
MTB RIDAZZ?
IM TALKING USING A MTB FOR 99% ALL DIRT AND MOUNTAIN TRAILS. NOMUCH ROAD RIDING AT ALL.
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NOT* MUCH ROAD RIDING. I DO SPELL WORDS GOODS USUALLY.
Jeff Yess09.15.09 - 6:43 pm
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I go for full suspension. 6 inches of travel was good for me. Makes big drops much less harsh and you don't have to worry about getting slammed too much if you case it.
merrickx09.15.09 - 7:02 pm
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full suspension ups the price a bit , but price well paid huh? better investment?
Jeff Yess responding to a
comment by merrickx
09.15.09 - 7:10 pm
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Depends on how well you ride. If you find yourself hitting the A-line at Whistler and dropping off 20 footers like that picture there, then I would definitely go with suspension. It's pricey, yes, but it's also worth it. If you're not at that level yet but still do some pretty hard riding, a hardtail is still an efficient ride. Also a lot faster if your going through some rhythm sections. You'll want to test out 26 and 29ers too. Wheel type and size makes a big difference too.
merrickx09.15.09 - 7:18 pm
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After decades of riding off road I am back to a hardtail
Full suspensions are always having some maintance issue,
shock problems, pivot problems,ect.
plus there always heavier and soak up your power on the climbs.
The only place I would want the FS is on a downhill rig, but since
I am not racing DH anymore my hardtail suites me fine.
Dedicated81809.15.09 - 7:53 pm
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i would mostly be in Santa Paula, lots of steep dirt not much(if any) drops
Jeff Yess09.15.09 - 7:57 pm
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Very true. Lots of maintenance. Unfortunately, it isn't just the fun maintenance. Sometimes you've got put more money into to fix it. I stopped riding downhill and singletrack for occupational reasons. That and the money... and the injuries. If I were to go back to reeeeally riding it, though, I would probably go with a hardtail with a good front suspension and 29ers
merrickx09.15.09 - 7:57 pm
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Yeah, I'd go with a hardtail for a slew of reasons considering your location. I used to ride really good frames with shitty components. A lot easier to replace cheap parts than expensive ones. Plus, you don't need nice anything to go downhill.
merrickx09.15.09 - 7:59 pm
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i literally live by that SP on the hill in the pic, im not to keen on the up keep of the rear shock/spring that i have no idea how to mess with. i definitely would be a making it a beater.
Jeff Yess responding to a
comment by merrickx
09.15.09 - 8:07 pm
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friday man, im coming for those vittoria reflectives , the roads in sp suck!
Jeff Yess responding to a
comment by ruinedbyidiots
09.15.09 - 8:10 pm
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I would first invest in a fire truck and some fire retardant clothing.
merrickx09.15.09 - 8:10 pm
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Hardtail for sure. FS bikes cost a lot more and you lose a lot of power on climbs, which is what mtb is all about.
rev106 responding to a
comment by merrickx
09.16.09 - 9:30 am
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I rode hard tail for a few years and then was given a full suspension bike. I really noticed the difference, the bike was a lot easier to control, especially going down hill on single tracks. The front shocks on both bikes were pretty much the same so the difference had to be the rear shock.
mk452409.16.09 - 6:33 pm
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Santa Cruz Nomad
-- end of thread --
e-rock responding to a
comment by mk4524
09.16.09 - 7:56 pm
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I've got both and like both. But if I could only have one, I'd have the FS. It's more versatile. Sure, you can do everything in the greater LA area on a hardtail, but the gnarlier stuff will be easier to do, softer on your tush with the FS.
And today's FS bikes are lighter and more reliable than years ago. Today's FS bikes can lock-out the rear, or "pro-pedal" so there's no power lost. And there are climbs I can do on my FS that i can't do on my HT because it looses grip and spins out. The FS can actually help you climb loose bumpy stuff better. Anyone who says otherwise either doesn't know any better or is an HT ideologue.
Hardtail 26ers have almost totally disappeared from top ten finishers in races. People ride either light 26er FS or 29er hardtails.
For you, it partly depends on how much money you have to spend and what kind of riding you want to do. You can't get a good FS for much less than $1500 new, and probably should spend closer to $2k for a decent build. If your budget limits you, get a HT 29er. That'll never be a bad investment.
For FS, I recommend my own brand, Giant, because they are cheaper than other brands and offer the same quality. They make frames for lots of other smaller boutique brands. And components are components from third-party anyway. Their return policy is also apparently terrific if there's ever an issue with the frame. Mine's a Giant Trance 2, but if I did it over again, I would consider the Reigns as well.
0gravity09.17.09 - 11:36 am
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this topic has been beaten to death on the internet....
lets beat it more...
FS: $$$$$ + more to maintain.... but access to more terrain (drops and such)
Full Rigid (thats what I ride): less $$$ + less to maintain (ride whatever your skills will allow... just dont get hurt and dont ride with a carbon rigid fork)
Front Susp (ugh): might as well get a FS or just ride rigid. Im kinding, i rode with front susp for years, and I just went rigid and havent changed.
I just like being able for the most part, to grab my bike, check tire pressure, see if everything is tight, and just run out the door.... I dont want to get into shock pressure, tuning, rebuilding forks...
plus i dont ride the gnarly trails, so im missing out in some sense... I see people on FS rigs on the trails i ride full rigid, so its kind of like... if thats all youre going to do...
just spend as $$$$$$ as you can, and let it collect dust.
md209.17.09 - 12:11 pm
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thanks i think HT has the advantage right now.
Jeff Yess09.17.09 - 12:29 pm
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Jeff,
What would have guided all the responses, is this:
What "kind" of trails do you "honestly" expect to, and want to ride?
That will guide the right bike purchase.
md2 responding to a
comment by Jeff Yess
09.17.09 - 12:39 pm
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to that I would add, how much do you want to spend. I'd love to have a Santa Cruz nomad but that's way beyond what I can afford. How much are they? I think they're close to $3,000.
As I said earlier, I had a hard tail for years and swore by it -- that is, until I had a chance to really try full suspension. It rode better and because it followed the trail better, it gives me a lot more confidence when I ride.
mk4524 responding to a
comment by md2
09.17.09 - 12:46 pm
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mk4524,
I think by "better" you mean comfort, correct?
A HT should (naturally, i suppose) help you follow the trail better. Correct me if Im wrong, but wouldnt you attribute your increased confidence on a FS is largely due to the fact you navigated on a HT for so long.
Now you can fly through/over shit, you once had to study much more, right?
In part, thats why I enjoy full rigid... I feel more in tune / "one" with the trail (im kidding, no really)... I think its the reason a few ride fixed on the trails -- its another step into really navigating short amounts of space (at least thats part of it)
Kind of like you have less gaps in the terrain to worry about on a FS
But yeah price matters too, just buy used and mail order, fuck bike shops...
md2 responding to a
comment by mk4524
09.17.09 - 12:55 pm
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$$ is for sure an issue. HT ssems to fit more of the riding i would do also for now. good points accorss the board for both but it mostly will come down to what i scrap together to get me one.
Jeff Yess09.17.09 - 1:13 pm
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By better, I'm not really talking about comfort. When I tried FS, I was surprised how much better it handled on the trail.
When I first got my HT, a friend told me the shocks aren't there for comfort. It's like in a car, they're there to keep the wheel in contact with the ground. If you've seen a car with bad shocks, you can see how the wheel is bouncing; you can tell you need shocks when your tires wear out really fast. I'm guessing because each time it bounces up, it comes down and takes a little more rubber with it -- kind of like on an airplane when it lands.
My first mtb was a hard tail with elastomer shocks. I swappped them out for air oil shocks and the difference was enormous. The better shocks were a lot more forgiving when the trail got gnarly and it did a better job of keeping the wheel on the ground so I felt like I had better control of the bike. I still remember my first stream crossing with the new shocks, I got about 3" of compression on the shock when I hit it and it just absorbed it. That's when I figured out that there's got to be a reason why riders will shell out big bucks for good shocks.
A few years later I got my hands on a full suspension bike. On my first ride, I could tell the difference and it wasn't really about comfort. It really handled a lot better. I admit that hard tail experience gave me a lot more confidence but as soon as I switched, I could tell the difference. Much better suspension than I have and even the ability to control the suspension from the handle bars. When you're moving, you really don't have much of a chance to make adjustments to your bike.
As far as comfort, I tried a seatpost with a built-in shock. It was nice but it didn't do much to keep that rear wheel on the ground. As far as I can figure out, when you're wheel isn't touching ground, you're not really in control of your machine.
I'll go on to say that just any full suspension bike isn't necessarily better than any hard tail. If I had to choose between my hard tail and a Costco full suspension bike, i'd keep that hard tail in a heart beat. Maybe that's the reason some riders will shell out $3 grand to get a Santa Cruz Nomad. Hell, that Costco bike probably cost as much as the rear derailleur on my bike. In fact, that Costco bike is cheaper than my rear shock.
As far as bike shops, I figure if I don't try to shop at them, they'll go out of business. I get a lot of information out of them, a lot more than I get out of a shipping clerk at a mail order house. Used can get iffy on some equipment especially mountain equipment because it can really get beat up.
I'll go along with Jeff, start out with a hard tail, they're cheaper. Then you can figure out if you really like it. My standard joke is I don't worry about buying expensive stuff at the beginning because you'll gradually upgrade your equipment as you crash and have to replace it. I pretty much have swapped out my entire drive train as I busted up the equipment.
mk4524 responding to a
comment by md2
09.17.09 - 7:03 pm
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Also, if you're going through some technical trails. Rocks and stumps and whatnot. Hope for the best and plan for the worst. I smashed three derailleurs before the thought of smashing another one was embedded into the back of my brain. Have slammed another one yet.
merrickx09.17.09 - 7:19 pm
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sweet. I'm afraid to ask how much.
mk452409.17.09 - 8:04 pm
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i dont know how much and im really scared
Jeff Yess09.17.09 - 11:48 pm
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"I don't worry about buying expensive stuff at the beginning because you'll gradually upgrade your equipment as you crash and have to replace it. "
i see that happening.
Jeff Yess responding to a
comment by mk4524
09.17.09 - 11:56 pm
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Just get started with what you have. My suggestion FWIW, start with a hard tail and keep your eyes open for upgrade your front shocks. You'll bang up your parts as you go and it's a good time to upgrade. I rode for a few years on a hard tail until a really good opportunity came where I could get a full suspension bike. I think it's a better ride but I got a lot of riding in during those years I had the hard tail. Make sure you have a helmet, I cracked two of them on mountain bike crashes. Better to crack the helmet than crack my head.
Face plants suck.
mk4524 responding to a
comment by Jeff Yess
09.18.09 - 12:18 am
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Your comment on bike shops is fucked up
your an idiot, do think think mail order will survive with out shops ?
most of the mail order places are shops.
(I get a lot of information out of them,a lot more than out of the shipping clerk.)
It's fucked up to go and waist someones time who is trying to make a living.
Most shop owners scrape by.
Support your local bike shop, in the long run they will be there for you.
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by mk4524
09.18.09 - 9:42 am
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that was my comment... and it was typed with a hint of sarcasm.
i believe in supporting local shops, but there are only a few shops i really like anyway.
The shop (Open Road) which coincidentally is located in front of shop that makes FOES bikes (above) is one of my favorites.
A lot of shops suck ass, and charge way more for misc parts than mail order. Fuck this idea that shop owners are these great people, just trying to support cyclist. Go in there enough with all your wonders and not "buy" anything,,, see how quick it takes for them to get irritated.
(NOT ALL SHOPS ARE THE SAME) Some shops are terrific, helpful, friendly... but at the end of the day -- THEY ALL NEED TO MAKE MONEY!!!
Moreover, your post is semi-contradictory, in that, it is true that some of my favorite mail order shops, double as actual bike shops.
Jenson
Tree Fort
Shit, Harris Cyclery
Calling the above shops will give you plenty of great customer service.
I agree, why waste a shops time with all your questions in this do-it-yourself world? I rarely buy from shops because I rarely NEED to. I can build / repair my own bike... so Im not going to pay $12 for brake pads at a local shop, when they're half the price online, and I can get x,y,x also...
Tough argument these days (note Bicycle Kitchen versus Bike Shop):
We want to promote "learn how to work on your bike", at the bike shops expense, but I also dont see any virtue in paying for high markups, just because they're a local shop I rarely visit.
Moreover, what happened to recycled parts (and its virtues) rather than buying the latest and greatest at Orange 20? There is definitely some conflicting principles, all of which I hardly care about since its all good for bikes and the world... hence,,, if you can work on your own bike ---MAIL ORDER -- dont hate
If you're visiting shops and boring them with all your questions, then at least help shine their bikes or something. I dont see what I owe them though.
md2 responding to a
comment by Dedicated818
09.18.09 - 10:17 am
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might as well buy a motorcycle...
Unless I was truly riding competive DH, there is absolutely no reason to have that bike.
I guess I just dislike FS bikes because they look like fucking motorcycles... thats just me though.... I like a more classic look to be honest, but to each his own.
md2 responding to a
comment by ruinedbyidiots
09.18.09 - 10:21 am
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true you will decrease the bouncing, but it depends on how you ride the trail, tire pressure, and the lines you pick...
I still havent found interest in FS. A relative has a nice FS and Ive though of borrowing it... but then I have to tune it for my weight and shit... ugh..
just ride, right?
md2 responding to a
comment by mk4524
09.18.09 - 10:23 am
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Buy a hardtail. Learn to be smooth and pick your lines on it.
Buy a full-suspension.
Now you know how to pick a line, adjust your lineage for the new line correcting suspension.
I can always tell when someone has never ridden a hardtail. Spend 1 minute behind them on a technical downhill.
parlorbikes09.18.09 - 1:33 pm
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Ridazz Roulette!
get a foes and call it a day. hand built in pasadena.