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Thread Box:
EVERYONE who got a ticket
Thread started by Roadblock at 03.28.09 - 8:01 am

To everyone who got a running a red light ticket on the people's ride.

Hit me with an email

Roadblock at midnightridazz dot com

we're going to fight this.

reply


yea u do what u gotta do roadblock! turn the tables.

it's funny to think that if you guys WERE running the red lights, that the cops might not have caught up to you guys.

also if you run the red lights, cars stuck behind the bicycle group can't keep following you, so a buffer gets created. if you guys keep stopping at the red lights, you cause more anger for the car drivers cause they will be stuck behind you for a very long time. oh the irony!!!!



Antranik
03.28.09 - 8:07 am

reply


I think its time that we start pushing to define the larger rides as parades.

One thing that ALL rides do is stop at the front for reds. That was exactly how we were riding last night. The mass was extremely disciplined last night.

The front and middle part of the parade was legal. The last 1/4 contiguously traveled with the front but likely ran lights. I and my group don't know, because we were in the front part of the ride.

When the cops blasted their sirens we were 3 blocks away from them. The first LAPD car sped up and trie to get to the front of the mass but gave up blocks later and started cutting into the riders. This happened after myself and a few others pulled over to the side when we heard sirens as all vehicles on the street are required to do.

I could kick myself for being so observant of the law because this cop violently pulled his car into the mass ahead of us, and another cruiser came up from behind and told us to get to the sidewalk and park our bikes on their kickstands.

He then got all of our IDs and by then more cruisers rolled up. He had been calling for balkcup. We were perfectly obiedient and I asked why we were being pulled over. He claimed to have seen us run the red about 4 blocks back.

I can't repeat this enough. The front and middle of the mass, as the officer wiggins himself acknowledged to us all, DID NOT run the light and we were in that group before it got chipped apart by the speeding cruisers.

I spoke to DJWheels about registering a complaint with the FED LAPD Inspector about the LAPD's refusal to take a report on my road rage incident, I believe this is another incident. I also look forward to getting advice from Stephen Box and Alex Thompson as they were in recent meeting regarding the tickets given out last Saturday.

Its basically time to look at the legalities of what these rides are.

Its the larger ones that cause problems. If they are going to happen they should be protected by law. This thing has been happening for 5 years and critical mass years before that...

email me



Roadblock
03.28.09 - 8:32 am

reply


this aggression will not stand, man.



la duderina
03.28.09 - 8:45 am

reply


The issue is this....

These rides are being defined as non permitted parades. However, because it is not permitted by a political body, doesn't mean that it does not exist as a traffic bound entity and should not continue to be subject to traffic law regarding parades. Then, the cops when upon seeing us would be legally bound to escort us not cite us.

I know nothing of legal procedure and who to sue. But I want a public defender to argue this case on behalf of group social rides.











Roadblock
03.28.09 - 8:47 am

reply


werd +1



and.... "he was calling for balkcup" fucking LOLio

'...this is 47, can I get all available units to cup my balls...'



Eric Hair
03.28.09 - 10:08 am

reply


Ohhh, man! Lots of competing interests here. Freedom of liberty/speech and asserting a right to the road VS. public safety (as stated in the penal and vehicle code).

Different legal theories support each of them. So this debate is easily derailed ALL the time.

I should say this...the public safety argument that the city and law enforcement have is a very strong one. Whether some cops think it's a better idea to look the other way and allow a group to run a light or provide an escort is a personal and discretionary choice only. Hopefully, fighting the bogus traffic citations in the meantime will get them to enforce the law properly.

However, at the end of the day, we can NOT expect to be allowed to run red lights, drink/smoke and bike, drink/smoke in public, litter or vandalize property. There's no way any of the big rides can get around that. Police and the City will win that argument all the time.

The good news is that this debate has been going on for a while and there are groups, such as the National Lawyers Guild, that have represented cyclists to fight the MISGUIDED use of parade and traffic laws by police.

I found this publication online. There is a section that relates specifically to cyclists and critical mass around page 55. They also mention a couple of lawyers from the association that may be worth contacting...Larry Hildes & Carol Sobel.

www.nationallawyersguild.org/NLG_Punishing_Protest_2007.pdf

It doesn't offer a right or wrong answer to the problems faced by all the big rides, but the different competing interests have been argued about before as they relate to Critical Mass. The examples in the article may shed some light about how things can play out here in L.A.





DJwheels
03.28.09 - 10:42 am

reply


Also, those of you who drive cars may want to check this handy chart against your citation, to see whether you need to fight it to avoid your car insurance going up or having to go to traffic school.

http://dmv.ca.gov/dl/vioptct.htm

Seriously, how embarrassing would going to traffic school for a bike infraction be?



JB
03.28.09 - 11:09 am

reply


we have to be more cunning from now on, downtown at night is a perfect place to wrangle us all up, thats what the pigs waited for, we made it easy for them, from now on we must pay more attention to our surroundings. we see cops, we have to play nice and not run reds, we also need video footage of pigs giving us escorts through the city on other occasions, thats always fun to show the judge in front of the worthless pig. fuck pigs



captainsweetroll
03.28.09 - 12:35 pm

reply


Anyone know how much it is to apply for a parade/march permit? Maybe we should just apply apply apply, we hopefully would get some approved, then police will have to escort us and it will cost the city tons of money to man these events and it will drive them nuts. We could make up reasons for the ride, protest this, drive some cash for this casue or that cause. They'll get fed up having to always escort us and maybe they'll just let us do our thing. Hit them where it hurts...$$$, that what they're doing to us!!!

I just hope the application fee is cheap, flood them with the paper work...demand a voice!!!!

M.O.B.



MikonOfBabylon
03.28.09 - 1:19 pm

reply


they wont give you a permit.



ruinedbyidiots
03.28.09 - 1:29 pm

reply


Years ago, I went to traffic school for blowing through 3 stop signs.
On my bike.



Creative Thing
03.28.09 - 1:44 pm

reply


OMG!!! We lost!!

We're talking about getting parade permits. It's over!

Well it was a good run while it lasted.

:-(



User1
03.28.09 - 1:47 pm

reply


I'm not talking about getting parade permits I'm talking about that these larger rides need to be treated by the cops as parades regardless of whether threre is a permit.

Whether a parade is legal or not it is Still a parade and the cops shouldn't be driving their cars into the mass like they did. This is the fourth time I've seen cops just drive right into the crowd. Last night a cop hit a cyclist on LACM at wilcox and santa monica. Then on the peoples ride the cops terrorized the mass again through downtown.








Roadblock
03.28.09 - 3:16 pm

reply


Well yeah, then find out where in their training did they get the memo where it's ok to do the pit manoeuvre on bikes. I agree that they have to still deal with us in an appropriate manor, so far it aint happening. The minute we're calling ourselves a parade is the minute the city is going to ask us to file for a permit. Not sure how long it will last if we use the spontanous parade defense.

The city is struggling to figure out how to deal with us. It's best if we could steer them in the right direction. It's a free speech and freedom of assembly that is mostly our defense. The hard part is dealing with us on the streets. Personally I like the way some officers deal with us, and that is to get us out of their jurisdiction. Make it someone else's problem. Don't a solution, but I like it.

This part of the CVC sounds pretty interesting, I haven't had a chance to read up on it, cause my head's hurting.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=21001-22000&file=21100-21117



User1
03.28.09 - 3:41 pm

reply


About how many people got tickets last night.?



buckchin
03.28.09 - 3:57 pm

reply


i would say like about 21 peeps



pop iggy
03.28.09 - 4:00 pm

reply


Thats funking wack. it is impossable for one cop to have seen 21 people run a light at the same time. what did he have a photo graphic memory



buckchin
03.28.09 - 4:16 pm

reply


I am not saying only ride in group when you have a permit, far from it. They are just ticketing people for riding in parade while not permitted. Keep riding but flood their system with paper work, get permits for some rides, cost them $$$, and it may do some good, just an idea. You have a right to have a parade if enough people support it. When I read about the bike licensing, a group rode down to get them, they ran out licenses, yadda yadda, they simply showed how poorly set up the system was and now the chief of police and the city council put a hold on demanding all bikers be licensed. Same idea here, but by all means ride on!!! If they say you can't ride in a big group without a permit, and then they don't give you one, then they are saying you can't ride in big group at all, a legally speaking, I don't think they can do that...have their cake and eat it to...I'll check on it.

M.O.B.



MikonOfBabylon
03.28.09 - 4:17 pm

reply


Spontaneous parades.... imagine a world in which the citizens could have spontaneous parades....

What a beautiful world it would be.



Roadblock
03.28.09 - 5:11 pm

reply


as long as there is the protection for the minority.



aksendz
03.28.09 - 5:17 pm

reply


from the majority



aksendz
03.28.09 - 5:17 pm

reply


There is a huge "group ride" of automobiles that clog LA streets every day, and they do not need to apply for a parade permit. There's no reason why people legally using public roads on bicycles need to get a special event permit to do that.



angle
03.28.09 - 5:50 pm

reply


Well its a good argument but the flaw is that the cars are not a parade because they aren't all going to the same destination and route. They don't all have the same purpose... a parade is a group of people moving with the same purpose and route....



Roadblock
03.28.09 - 6:06 pm

reply


The only reason we would want to call ourselves a parade is to get the cops off our back about contiguously rolling through lights.... if we don't want that special designation then we would have to simply ride legal stopping at every light and breaking up the group. We've done it before as an experiment but the cops actually told us to stick together and they escorted us through hollywood on one occasion and through echo park pico union on another.





Roadblock
03.28.09 - 6:26 pm

reply


The cops will NOT get off our backs if we declare that rides are parades if we don't have the requisite permits, proof of insurance, security details etc., etc., etc. Claiming to be a parade without that stuff gives them carte blanche to shut down the rides for being illegal and compromising public safety.

Also, I've thought about that destination argument before, Roadblock, but I think it's a technicality. What about when hundreds of people head to Dodger Stadium for a game and tie up traffic on Sunset? What about when thousands of people head home from Coachella? What if a bunch of people, on the same day, decide to drive around L.A. without a particular goal, just for fun? Are they blocking the streets for other people who have a "more legitimate" use for for them?



angle
03.28.09 - 7:08 pm

reply


Great points. When cars go TO dodger stadium or coachella they ARE treated like a parade by traffic cops and officials.

I'm not saying that we can protest a ticket with a cop at this point using the parade argument. I'm saying that we need to get some kind of legal status passed and agreed to by the powers that be aclu lawyers etc. Go read djwheels post up there it says everything I can't put into words.






Roadblock
03.28.09 - 8:15 pm

reply


I'd be cautious about this. It seems to me the more legit these rides get, the greater the liability of the organizers. I'd hate to see Midnight Ridazz taken to court and fizzle out because of lawsuits.........but hey I may be wrong.



la duderina
03.28.09 - 8:30 pm

reply


Some very interesting info in that PDF—thanks for posting it, DJwheels.

The main point I'd like to get across is that I think it's a very bad idea to suggest that these rides require the LAPD to give them special parade-like privileges that don't apply to other road users. It may be that ridazz are going to have to be more careful about following traffic laws (at least on busier streets), but I say groups of cyclists have a legitimate place on public streets, and don't need no stinkin' permits.



angle
03.28.09 - 11:15 pm

reply


angle

+ 1



coldcut
03.29.09 - 3:56 am

reply


if a group is so large that it breaks up during traffic stops, i don't see a problem if the end destination is the same. if anything, maybe this will encourage the cops to allow us to ride as a continuous mass cos they'll be so frustrated with so many bikes legally clogging up the streets.



coldcut
03.29.09 - 4:00 am

reply


Roadblock, we talked about a critical manners at hollenbeck last night, Maybe we need to just do that in areas where we have been targeted and harassed. It's an idea... fuck parade permits, let's just do it ALL legal, but inside a grid, just tie up every intersection in EVERY direction, completely legally, then see how quickly they figure out a good strategy to deal with us.
I men, what if we *dont* have a destination, we're just riding in a grid... going where we please. Instead of tying up one lane of traffic for a coupe mintutes, we shut down a block of the grid for, say an hour or so?
Let's call it Safety Ride 3, and promote some of the other issues we need to focus on as a community.



FuzzBeast
03.29.09 - 6:14 am

reply


Fuzzbeast has got it! Let's do it.



danya
03.29.09 - 10:10 am

reply


Fuzzbeast idea +1




skd
03.29.09 - 10:15 am

reply


fuzz is right.

the best fight is to show flaw through actions that bring about flaw in the system.

only question is are we as a community diligent enough to invest the time it will take to make a proper statement. i doubt that 1 ride here and there will be a strong enough message.

this should be done daily for a month or until they change their unjust treatment of bikers or overall policy altogether.

imho.



jchungerford
03.29.09 - 11:03 am

reply


You guys, I'm not saying anything about getting permits. I do not want that. What I'm saying is that when cops see a parade, they should be compelled to treat it like one whther it is permitted or not.

The rides will happen reguardless... its too late, the cat is out of the bag. People love to ride together, lots of people. It can't be stopped.

Lets set up a critical manners and make it huge inside a designated boundry. Everyone must ride letter of the law legal.... I can already tell that's going to be hard judging by how many people ran lights in front of dtla cops last night. Ha.






Roadblock
03.29.09 - 11:13 am

reply


Flooding a grid has already been suggested to do in SM. The ridazz in SM poo pooed the idea. I forgot why, but they did. You'll have to go back and look at the threads. If my feeble mind serves me correctly, I think they didn't want to piss off the drivers. Yeah, I laughed at that too!



User1
03.29.09 - 12:01 pm

reply


I like the idea of a critical manners ride. I think you still have to assume that the cops will be cops and do their thing if called out or if they see anyone not riding letter of the law.

It's important to have lots of cameras and even camcorders ready to catch any police misconduct.

I spent some time looking at some of the youtube videos on the NYC Critical Mass and one thing I noticed is that tons of riders had their cameras ready to go as soon as cops were out of line. It's that kind of footage that can be really useful when pushing for change in legislation or even police procedures. It's also great evidence for a lawsuit or defense of bogus charges.



DJwheels
03.29.09 - 12:09 pm

reply


Don't assume that the rides are unstoppable. If it's decided, for whatever reason, that these rides are a public nuissance and/or some sort of anarchist protest, the cops will crack down on them like they did in NYC. This would mean that most of the people that ride just for fun are going to stop showing up. No one wants to get ticketed, detained and possibly beaten up, even if those actions are illegal and don't hold up in court.

I'm not saying this is likely, but with mainstream news reporting that CRANK Mob was a "stampeding heard of wild buffalo", it shouldn't be all that difficult to convince the general public that these rides are dangerous and need to be shut down.

On that note, I think it was intentional that CRANK Mob was wrongly identified as a Critical Mass ride by the LAPD.



angle
03.29.09 - 2:06 pm

reply


Public nuisance? We are free to assemble, it's a constitutional right. If the traffic flow is diverted, or stopped, it's stopped for all traffic, since bicycle have all the rights and responsibilities of a driver. It would be a hard argument to make that bicycles will be the only ones stopped. It can be argued that cars are far more of a nuisance, a danger, and a health hazarded than a bicycle. That argument would be a far easier argument to make than to reduce the movement of bicycles.





User1
03.29.09 - 10:31 pm

reply


Fuzzbeasts idea would work extremely well with the large amounts of people you'll always get.

I remember at that event we had here last May, the organizers tried to keep it peaceful, but myself and some other "outsiders" decided to pull the cork maneuvers at the intersections we saw fit.

For the most part, lots of shocked faces, followed by the usual cowering of "get off the road!!"



bentstrider
03.29.09 - 11:04 pm

reply


Roadblock wrote:

I think its time that we start pushing to define the larger rides as parades.

I think you should think about this a lot longer, and a lot harder, before you launch a campaign to assign group social rides a legal status that could potentially open up several very large and slimy cans of worms.

At the very least, do not even think about risking our future like this without first going for a consultation with a lawyer who has some experience with issues of parades, applicability of traffic laws to parades, permitting and insurance requirements for parades, legal differences (if any) regarding the protections afforded to permitted vs. unpermitted parades, and so on.



PC
03.30.09 - 2:51 am

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Better yet, maybe we should all just finally admit to ourselves that really really massive group rides kinda suck anyway and mostly aren't worth the trouble.



PC
03.30.09 - 2:55 am

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critical manners FTW!!!!



coldcut
03.30.09 - 3:08 am

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When did all this happen...i was at LACM til they went to ralph's i didnt see anyone get tickets...



TheRaquel
03.30.09 - 12:09 pm

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C'mon, the Naysayers have been held off quite effectively, let us not give them a winning hand.



bentstrider
03.30.09 - 12:24 pm

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Better yet, maybe we should all just finally admit to ourselves that really really massive group rides kinda suck anyway and mostly aren't worth the trouble.

PC
03.30.09 - 5:55 am

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yes, i'll definitely agree. they do kinda suck and mostly arent worth the trouble. but that doesnt necessarily mean they're not worth doing. we know that the past MR rides got too big and had to be broken up. now we have rides every day of the week, several times a day in different parts of the city. AND we have big rides too.

what would happen if we had an enormous ride in every part of town every day of the week? would that be a failure or success? i think the next big challenge for Midnight Ridazz will be to deal with the problems that come with its success. and like everything else on MR, each group of ride leaders will have to come up with its own set of solutions for the problems we face.



tortuga_veloce
03.30.09 - 12:46 pm

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stop trying to be so fucking diplomatic.



ruinedbyidiots
03.30.09 - 12:52 pm

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"At the very least, do not even think about risking our future like this without first going for a consultation with a lawyer who has some experience with issues of parades, applicability of traffic laws to parades, permitting and insurance requirements for parades, legal differences (if any) regarding the protections afforded to permitted vs. unpermitted parades, and so on."

yes PC if you read my post I talked about consulting with a lawyer first it was great that an actual lawyer who rides with us posted some great info regarding CMSF and how it was dealt with up there.

but once again. even IF we were successful at forcing the cops to treat us like a parade. I'm NOT talking about getting actually getting permits by any stretch of the imagination!!!! <_______ repeat that to yourself 13 times out loud in the dark in the bathroom. spontaneous non permitted parades will happen. I want the cops to be forced to treat all parades the same.

I'm saying that traffic entity known as a parade (people navigating through streets together as one group for one purpose) should be treated as a parade REGARDLESS of whether it i permitted or not. what I'm suggesting is that cops should NOT, when encountering a traffic entity known as a parade (permitted or not), ticket the individuals participating in the parade as individuals. they should be bound to treat the mass as a parade whether it is legal or not and sort out WHO was to get the permits later.

how many ways can I repeat this.....


a parade is a parade regardless of whether it is permitted or not and should be treated as such.

with that clarification made to the cops, they may choose to escort, choose to ignore or choose to attempt to find out who organized the parde but they will not be able to ticket the parade as individuals.









Roadblock
03.30.09 - 1:06 pm

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we could just ritually sacrifice a ridaa for each ride.
then we will get cops to cork every ride for us like they do for every other funeral procession.

Montezuma Ridazz?



trickmilla
03.30.09 - 1:07 pm

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Roadblock wrote:

yes PC if you read my post I talked about consulting with a lawyer first it was great that an actual lawyer who rides with us posted some great info regarding CMSF and how it was dealt with up there.

I said "a lawyer who has some experience with issues of parades, applicability of traffic laws to parades, permitting and insurance requirements for parades, legal differences (if any) regarding the protections afforded to permitted vs. unpermitted parades, and so on" for a reason. And by consulting I meant actually sitting down for hours with a lawyer who can bring you up to speed on all the implications of trying to assume the legal status of a parade, and give you some idea of whether it's even feasible in the current legal/judicial climate here in Los Angeles.

It would also be good if you could bounce some of your own legal assumptions off of an actual lawyer; I'm thinking specifically of this idea you have that the police are somehow "legally bound" to escort parades whether they are permitted or unpermitted (or am I misunderstanding you, and you're actually advocating that they be required to do that?).

Oh.

And.

Putting lawyers and all that shit aside, there's also the little issue of the ideology (not to be confused with politics) of these rides, and whether we really want to self-identify as a parade, which is by definition a spectacle created to be perceived and appreciated by onlookers. I don't know about you, but for me the novelty of showing off for cars and pedestrians wore off after about my fourth big group bike ride. I wouldn't still be doing any of this shit if the spectacle were the main thing, or even a main thing. Would you?

(And I'm talking as someone who still sometimes wears a banana suit for bike rides.)

The appeal of these rides is, arguably, the way the riders experience them. Seeing the city, having adventures, making new friends, feeling the burn, yadda yadda blah...right?

I'm just saying I have misgivings about being a "parade" in any sense, legal or otherwise. Big misgivings. Maybe it's just me whining and maybe it's not that important. Convince me! Or stick a pacifier in my mouth or something, because I truly have a problem with this.



PC
03.31.09 - 3:32 am

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how do i send emails on here?



ONEwayRIDA
03.31.09 - 5:37 am

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@pc

(Yes of course it would be a lawyer familiar with traffic law and parade law)

You are getting caught up in theoretical vs actual facts on the ground.

The facts on the ground is that any of these rides that roll contiguously through reds are being viewed as illegal right here right now.

They could be called parades, cruising or ham sandwhiches for all the cops could care. And some cops care about stopping these rides and some cops don't. Regardless of legal status they happen and will happen. That will not change by changing the legl definition of them because they are already ILLEGAL. The point is to alter the way the cops are allowed to disperse them.... in other words when the cops come across a ride that they consider to be illegal the issue is how to properly disperse one of these rides. Do you want the cops to continue to have the power to just rope off a bunch of people and give them tickets? Should the cops be able to continue to drive aggressively into the mass?

The issue should be what is the correct procedure to disperse an illegal parade when the cops wish to do so.

As it is our only option is having the cops in some areas bully us and ticket us as individuals where as in some areas the cops are friendly and escort us. the rides that don't cross reds are exempt because they don't break any laws.

Right now here today, the rides that DO cross reds are already considered illegal and are subject to the whims of the agency and cities they occur in.

When the cops DO take an interest in stoppingthe ride what's worse? The way the cops treat us now with cruisers driving aggressively into the mass and individuals getting tickets or police being forced to observe proper procedure for dispersing an illegal parade?

maybe at the end of the day it would be better to remain culpable as individuals.... as of now, as a recipient of a false charge ticket along with 20 other I don't think its the best way... I'd like to study up on what proper procedure is to disperse parades and see if that's a better option than ticketing.

Remember though that is ONLY when cops decide they don't like us. I don't think their directive to use proper procedure to disperse our rides will change their minds as to whether they want to stop us in the first place. In fact perhaps it might even discourage them to try and stop us if they are compelled to use proper porcedure. I'm guessing proper porcedure for illegal parade dispersal is a lot more work than just having fun running their cruisers into the crowd and roping us off like cattle. AND I'm guessing the tickets as individuals would not be as harmful as running a red light tickets.





Roadblock
03.31.09 - 10:37 am

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In other words..... I'm saying lets not get obsessed with our legal status, the non permitted rides that run reds will always be illegal in some way - lets concentrate on changing the methods the cops can use to disperse the ride.



Roadblock
03.31.09 - 10:40 am

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Actually, the methods the cops used to disperse the ride were probably already illegal. I'd ask Stephen Box or Alex Thompson, but we could probably sue the officer who was driving in that particular instance. Does anyone remember what happened to the officer who tackled someone off their bike at NYCM?
Also, I just searched the CA Codes, no info on parades legal or otherwise.



danya
03.31.09 - 10:53 am

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I say we tighten up our britches and sing like the Duke on this one.

I'm saying puff out your chest and run the gauntlet, if you didn't do anything wrong, why be scared, or on the offensive for that matter.



bentstrider
03.31.09 - 11:00 am

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I definitely suspect the cops have been illegal in their methods, now we need to find a lawyer who specializes in the applicable laws to give some advice.

I'd like to be able to go into court for my ticket and have a defense that goes something like.... I was participating in a parade with 500 other people when I got this ticket, therefore I was not to be treated as an individual in traffic and therefore this ticket is erroneous and should be dismissed.



Roadblock
03.31.09 - 11:14 am

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You didn't run the red at all, so that shouldn't even be a problem. But it would be nice if you could press charges for assault with a deadly weapon. In fact, it would be great if we could do that as a group, since the car drove into the group. Maybe the ACLU or a similar organization could help with that?



danya
03.31.09 - 11:32 am

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We need video cameras. Everytime the cops start harassing us and using illegal methods to disperse the assembly, they should be video taped and photographed.



Roadblock
03.31.09 - 11:53 am

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I'm thinking handlebar mounted cameras on as many bikes as possible. Do you think it'd be a good idea to call 911 when they pull the extreme and obviously assault type of stuff? I play dumb very well.



danya
03.31.09 - 11:56 am

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I got a ticket on a previous CM. I still haven't paid it because i want to fight it! But i need to know how to fight it.



batgirlkarla
03.31.09 - 11:59 am

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More details on the ticket- is it overdue? What was the specific violation? Do you just want the ticket dismissed, or do you want to really make a point?
Also, have a look at this. It was linked above, but is totally worth relinking. If you scroll down to page 80 of the pdf (marked as page 67 of the document) there's an entire section on dealing with Critical Mass.



danya
03.31.09 - 12:04 pm

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From the pdf: "Another officer committed perjury by saying he had witnessed a traffic infraction when he had not, saying later that his lieutenant had ordered him to say so.186"
Sound familiar?



danya
03.31.09 - 12:10 pm

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My ticket is not overdue, I just kept extending the date. I have court April 4th. But it was totally true, the officer didn't really see us run the red, we were just the stupid ones to pull over. Thanks for that.



batgirlkarla
03.31.09 - 12:38 pm

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I just want the ticket dismissed. I tried to see if they would let me take traffic school but because i was a "ped on a bike running a red light" they would not let me. I



batgirlkarla
03.31.09 - 12:40 pm

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Go to court, plead not guilty. Ask the officer to identify the color of your bike. He can't do that, so he can't say that he saw you run the light either. Ticket should be dismissed.



danya
03.31.09 - 12:44 pm

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@danya
parade law: http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/vc_index_p.htm

@roadblock
my argument would be, "i did not run the red light, the people behind me did. i was ticketed for associating with them."

also, with regard to the police tactics currently being used, i think the best way to deal with this is directly addressing the fact that police are acting in a dangerous manner, rather than making a roundabout argument that we are parading.

if police are failing to use good judgement and driving into masses of cyclists, we should be filing complaints and reporting them to their commanding officers, all the way up to the chief, and then the city council is necessary. to make this case, the best thing we can do for ourselves is to videotape these maneuvers. we need to prove clearly that the police are endangering public safety in pursuit of traffic infractions.

with regard to parading, we can argue that we are exercising free speech by promoting cycling as a recreational activity (the simple truth) but using the designation of "parade" gets a little sticky. while i see where you're going with this, i'd just like to point out some legal snares that you will encounter if you go this way:
-NY has used parade laws to break up critical mass rides illegally
-Individual cyclists, not organizers can be punished for participating in an illegal parade. remember Easy Rider?
perhaps it may be better to ask that we be "treated" as a parade, rather than recognized as one.

since the rides are an exercise in free speech, the Bill of Rights is on our side. unfortunately, police are not constitutional scholars, and neither are most of us. to me the easy road seems to be appealing to the police command regarding the unsafe and unfair practices of its officers in dispersing cyclists riding together socially. this still leaves the rides open to dispersal by other means.

the point is, we are allowed to ride en masse legally. if some people run a red, the police may only legally ticket those people. the critical mass concept is that it would be impossible to sort out who had run the light illegally, which is why the NYPD has resorted to citing participants for parading or lights violations.

i think the longer-winded argument that keeping the ride in one mass, as opp. breaking it up creates a smaller impact on traffic and is safer.

as far as i know, the only legal justification for running a red light is to avoid an accident, such as a bunch of cyclists riding closely behind you:

Obedience to Traffic Control Signals
21462. The driver of any vehicle, the person in charge of any animal, any pedestrian, and the motorman of any streetcar shall obey the instructions of any official traffic signal applicable to him and placed as provided by law, unless otherwise directed by a police or traffic officer or when it is necessary for the purpose of avoiding a collision or in case of other emergency, subject to the exemptions granted by Section 21055.



tortuga_veloce
03.31.09 - 12:59 pm

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@karla and roadblock

trial by declaration is the easiest way to get out of a ticket.

BUT if you really want to piss off the cops, go to court and subpoena a recording from their squad car, their police academy records, their entire file, including any and all complaints made against them.



tortuga_veloce
03.31.09 - 1:25 pm

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This is a very interesting topic because it's starting to seem more and more likely that one of these days I'm going to get ticketed on a ride (actually I already have, so it would be a second ticket).

Because of this, my friends and I are starting to get the idea that BIG RIDES SUCK. No offense, I love big rides in a way, but having a smaller, more intimate ride is a lot more fun and it's easier to keep track of your group and obey the traffic laws. We've noticed that we tend to have more fun riding back from the end of a ride than we do on the ride itself. We're thinking that from now on we're just going to do our own little rides just to be safe (especially since two of my friends have recently had DUI's and are scared shitless of getting in trouble with the law on a ride).

But fear not, this does not mean the end of riding! In fact I have a feeling that this is how one little monthly ride has turned into a ton of daily rides, which has only increased the number of people doing rides. So don't be scared to say that you're done with the big rides, because as long as people keep riding and inviting their friends to go riding with them, this phenomenon will only grow in size.

I think it is completely possible to be legal and safe and have fun if you want to.



shmuck
03.31.09 - 1:34 pm

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maybe it really just comes down to what shmuck said...



Roadblock
03.31.09 - 1:52 pm

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that's one way. i for one dont want to give up or give in to police pressure, but that's a choice we all have to make. i'd hate to think that the larger rides died mostly because the cops gave us such a hard time. but we need to go on living our lives, and nobody wants to be a martyr.

see you all at the next MR ride?



tortuga_veloce
03.31.09 - 2:20 pm

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The sky is falling. The Sky is Falling.



stillline
03.31.09 - 2:24 pm

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You can all fight those re light tickets and probably win.

Its not over till they start giving out the real ride killer.

THE DUI.





stillline
03.31.09 - 2:26 pm

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Roadblock wrote:

The issue should be what is the correct procedure to disperse an illegal parade when the cops wish to do so. [and a lot of other stuff along those lines]

I suspect that you are way, way misinterpreting the way the cops are viewing the rides. I really really doubt that they're thinking "how do I disperse this illegal parade"? All of my experience and observation leads me to believe that they're thinking something more like "look at all those assholes running red lights!"

I think the biggest indicator of how the cops view the rides is the fact that they're writing tickets for running reds. If they thought we were parading illegally, they would cite people for parading without a permit, wouldn't they?




PC
03.31.09 - 3:02 pm

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By the way, Roadblock...congratulations on coming around to the idea of pushing to change laws. Mister fuckin' Paint On The Ground. Ahahahahahaha.

I kid the Roadblocks.



PC
03.31.09 - 3:07 pm

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Yeah, I'm not following this idea of dispersing the crowd either. The only ones doing anything illegal in the above posts, is running a red light. Then ticket the ridazz that ran a red light with a ticket. What's the reasoning for dispersing the pack? Is it legal? I don't think so.



User1
03.31.09 - 5:12 pm

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Disperse, then regroup about 2 blocks away.

It's gonna be one crazy night trying to enforce a continual, dispersal order.



bentstrider
03.31.09 - 5:20 pm

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@pc

Who said anything about changing laws? I'm talking about interpreting the laws already on the books. Defining what we do as a parade would not require any new legislation silly banana guy.

Anyways.... running lights happens on critical mass san francisco and they figured out a way to deal with it. No reason that can't happen here. Its a parade. There is a tactical procedure for dispersing illegal parades. I bet it doesn't involve writing false tickets for running lights and driving dangerously into the mass.


I and about 10 other people I was with did NOT run that red light. We were at the front 1/2 of the ride and it stopped at the light then proceded on green. There is a huge problem with the way we were ticketed. We didn't do it.






Roadblock
04.1.09 - 5:33 am

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Roadblock- when they start considering us an illegal parade, they'll start confiscating bicycles and arresting people as well as ticketing individuals for (1) participating in an illegal parade, (2) disorderly conduct, (3) running the red/no bike license/whatever else they were ticketing for before as well. The LAPD seem to be following the behavior of the NYPD quite exactly in this instance- up to having ignored/supported big rides for years and just recently using excessive force against these rides.

What the NYPD did- "The New York police, who deem Critical Mass an illegal parade and have drafted a law that would essentially ban it, have seemed obsessed with the rides since one coincided with the Republican National Convention in August 2004…. An amazing array of police resources—scooters, vans, unmarked cars and helicopters—chase a quarry that looks like fish in a barrel. Police vehicles race the wrong way and on sidewalks, posing a greater public danger than the bikers." - from the NY Times, and the NLG publication.



danya
04.1.09 - 8:11 am

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yeah, the parade thing may be a can of worms we dont want to fuck with. better to argue on the issue that officers are using unsafe practices and issuing blanket citations.

better than trying to define the ride as something which it arguably isnt.



tortuga_veloce
04.1.09 - 9:42 am

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